Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 50 (9179 total)
2 online now:
Newest Member: Jorge Parker
Post Volume: Total: 918,208 Year: 5,465/9,624 Month: 490/323 Week: 130/204 Day: 4/26 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Can a valid, supportable reason be offered for deconversion
frako
Member (Idle past 419 days)
Posts: 2932
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010


Message 6 of 566 (595346)
12-08-2010 6:51 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Dawn Bertot
12-08-2010 3:15 AM


Use the same reasons you deconverted from believing in Santa Claus and you will deconvert from god.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Dawn Bertot, posted 12-08-2010 3:15 AM Dawn Bertot has not replied

  
frako
Member (Idle past 419 days)
Posts: 2932
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010


Message 29 of 566 (595520)
12-09-2010 4:06 AM
Reply to: Message 27 by arachnophilia
12-08-2010 11:15 PM


Re: Most Gods should be thrown away
that would be a losing battle, almost by definition.
i do, however, appreciate the old testament idea of struggling with god. i think it's a much more realistic and mature religious philosophy.
Nah If he is as stupid as his creation looks like. I use the same method like someone used in a legend against a dragon he asked him if he is all that powerful then he should eat himself.
When he tries to give you a trial you swipe a sword from an angel and stab him in the forehead.
When he sends me to hell i challenge Satan for the ruler ship of hell win and then lead an all out attack on heaven. (it is better to rule in hell then to serve in heaven) lol
Lol tough there is no need to kill god like there is no need to kill the pink unicorn they both do not exists.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by arachnophilia, posted 12-08-2010 11:15 PM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by arachnophilia, posted 12-09-2010 10:29 AM frako has not replied

  
frako
Member (Idle past 419 days)
Posts: 2932
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010


Message 60 of 566 (596075)
12-12-2010 7:54 PM
Reply to: Message 59 by Dawn Bertot
12-12-2010 7:41 PM


If you want a reason to deconvert from your PRIVATE beliefs you will haveto provide your PRIVATE anwsers to why.
I can only suggest you start with anwsers to why you do not believe in Allah, To why you do not believe in Buddas teachings, To why you do not believe in hindu, the greek gods, the norse gods and as many others as you can find. And when you are done compiling the list apply the same anwsers to your god. You will see they fit really nicely.
Or you can apply the same logic to why you believe in god to a milk carton if you aply the same logic you use to support your god. The milk carton will be as powerful as god.
Example:
- God sometimes anwser prayers, sometimes he does not, and sometimes he makes you wait. Well the milk carton does the same.
- God is invisible and undetectable and can bend the universe to his will, Well the milk carton is visable tough his powers are as invisable as your god and he can bend the universe to his will.
-God loves me. Well the milk carton loves you too and it is sad because you do not believe in him.
And any other reason you have for believing in god apply it to the milk carton with the same logic as you apply it to god.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 59 by Dawn Bertot, posted 12-12-2010 7:41 PM Dawn Bertot has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 61 by Dawn Bertot, posted 12-13-2010 9:06 AM frako has replied

  
frako
Member (Idle past 419 days)
Posts: 2932
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010


Message 72 of 566 (596167)
12-13-2010 3:58 PM
Reply to: Message 61 by Dawn Bertot
12-13-2010 9:06 AM


Because the Koran is not like the Bible, it cannot sustain itself by its internal evidences, in the nature of historical and archaeological support and especially in doctrine.
My guess is you have never read the Koran, it is about 85-90% the same as the bible.
And the bible can sustain itself on archaeological evidence i would really like to see that evidence.
And is totaly consistent there are no things in it that contradict itself like:
GE 1:3-5 On the first day, God created light, then separated light and darkness.
GE 1:14-19 The sun (which separates night and day) wasn't created until the fourth day.
GE 1:11-12, 26-27 Trees were created before man was created.
GE 2:4-9 Man was created before trees were created.
GE 4:4-5 God prefers Abel's offering and has no regard for Cain's.
2CH 19:7, AC 10:34, RO 2:11 God shows no partiality. He treats all alike.
GA 5:22-23 The fruit of the Spirit of God is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control.
2CO 13:11, 14, 1JN 4:8, 16 God is love.
GE 4:15, DT 32:19-27, IS 34:8 God is a vengeful god.
EX 15:3, IS 42:13, HE 12:29 God is a warrior. God is a consuming fire.
EX 20:5, 34:14, DT 4:24, 5:9, 6:15, 29:20, 32:21 God is a jealous god.
LE 26:7-8, NU 31:17-18, DT 20:16-17, JS 10:40, JG 14:19, EZ 9:5-7 The Spirit of God is (sometimes) murder and killing.
NU 25:3-4, DT 6:15, 9:7-8, 29:20, 32:21, PS 7:11, 78:49, JE 4:8, 17:4, 32:30-31, ZP 2:2 God is angry. His anger is sometimes fierce.
2SA 22:7-8 (KJV) "I called to the Lord; ... he heard my voice; ... The earth trembled and quaked, ... because he was angry. Smoke came from his nostrils. Consuming fire came from his mouth, burning coals blazed out of it."
EZ 6:12, NA 1:2, 6 God is jealous and furious. He reserves wrath for, and takes revenge on, his enemies. "... who can abide in the fierceness of his anger? His fury is poured out like fire, and rocks are thrown down by him."
GE 6:4 There were Nephilim (giants) before the Flood.
GE 7:21 All creatures other than Noah and his clan were annihilated by the Flood.
NU 13:33 There were Nephilim after the Flood.
GE 6:19-22, 7:8-9, 7:14-16 Two of each kind are to be taken, and are taken, aboard Noah's Ark.
GE 7:2-5 Seven pairs of some kinds are to be taken (and are taken) aboard the Ark.
......
and lots more
You might have a point if it were not for design and articulation in design and direct revelation.
The milk carton has reveald himself to you by direct revelation how can you doubt his power, and he is the one who designed the universe.
I said apply all your logic that makes you belive in god to the milk carton or something as silly as the milk carton it is one way that your eyes can be opend and you can see that you are only deluding yourself.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by Dawn Bertot, posted 12-13-2010 9:06 AM Dawn Bertot has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 77 by arachnophilia, posted 12-13-2010 7:00 PM frako has replied
 Message 86 by Dawn Bertot, posted 12-13-2010 8:01 PM frako has not replied

  
frako
Member (Idle past 419 days)
Posts: 2932
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010


Message 83 of 566 (596209)
12-13-2010 7:54 PM
Reply to: Message 77 by arachnophilia
12-13-2010 7:00 PM


your other examples aside, i do not think this one is a contradiction. we are dealing with a single author, in this case, and part of the same source text. the author simply believed that the sun was not the source of light, at least for the first three days.
stupid, but not contradictory.
One would think that god the one who inspired breathed on....the bibles writers would tell the inspired breathed on or whatever writer this.
It is just one of the pieces that point to the bibles human origins and pulls it away from divine origins. Or in other words it shows that the bible was written by bronze age men that had bronze age understanding of the world.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by arachnophilia, posted 12-13-2010 7:00 PM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 87 by arachnophilia, posted 12-13-2010 8:06 PM frako has replied

  
frako
Member (Idle past 419 days)
Posts: 2932
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010


Message 85 of 566 (596212)
12-13-2010 7:58 PM
Reply to: Message 82 by Dawn Bertot
12-13-2010 7:45 PM


"Through thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed" Fulfilled in Christ
Aha, umm so how where we blessed, and how was this fulfilled by Christ. Did the wars stop, Did hunger stop, did anything bad stop??? Or was this one of those blessing be blessed my child and then you walk out of the church and get hit by a car. The milk carton can bless the world in the same way.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by Dawn Bertot, posted 12-13-2010 7:45 PM Dawn Bertot has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 98 by Dawn Bertot, posted 12-13-2010 11:26 PM frako has replied

  
frako
Member (Idle past 419 days)
Posts: 2932
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010


Message 89 of 566 (596219)
12-13-2010 8:45 PM
Reply to: Message 87 by arachnophilia
12-13-2010 8:06 PM


wouldn't it be cool if the bible explained string theory? stuff that no human being at the time could possibly understand? surely, if it were literally dictated by god, such things would be routine. yet, it starts out with stuff like genesis 1, which gets so many things factually wrong...
I would have been satisfied with less e=mc2 would be more then good enough for me to have serious thoughts of converting. a simple phrase moses i say on to you thine energy is they mass multiplied by the speed of light multiplied upon itself. Something the bronze age people could have not known tough what do we get the contrary things that the bronze age people thought where true like that moon and the stars are lights, that the earth has 4 corners that there is a god that keeps the earth running, that the sky is a dome above the flat earth.....

This message is a reply to:
 Message 87 by arachnophilia, posted 12-13-2010 8:06 PM arachnophilia has not replied

  
frako
Member (Idle past 419 days)
Posts: 2932
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010


Message 119 of 566 (596312)
12-14-2010 10:17 AM
Reply to: Message 98 by Dawn Bertot
12-13-2010 11:26 PM


If you look deeper in scripture for more than physical reactions and reason, Paul explains that all spiritual blessings were met in Jesus Christ
Ah spiritual blessings, im sorry i did not know that they where the same blessings as the milk carton can give you yes that is a very good reason to believe in your god and not the milk carton.
While there are always physical blessings as a result of following his principles, the main thrust was the reunification of man to God
Oh can you show me some of those physical blessings? What are they cured amputations, plants miraculously riping every day to provide enough to feed the world 2ce times over??
There are also negative physical results of following Christs rules and principles, as he indicated there would be
As there are negative physical results to the milk carton as it was said there would be, trees dying to make the carton and weather changes because of the over lumbering.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 98 by Dawn Bertot, posted 12-13-2010 11:26 PM Dawn Bertot has not replied

  
frako
Member (Idle past 419 days)
Posts: 2932
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010


Message 325 of 566 (597397)
12-21-2010 9:41 AM
Reply to: Message 316 by Dawn Bertot
12-20-2010 8:23 PM


Re: How to test Dawn Bertot's writings.
Lets try again
The bible contradicts itself on many occasions
the bible is wrong on lots of facts
No prophecies presented on this forum are actual prophecies and none have come to pass
So it is reasnoble to conclude that the Bible is not the word of god and it is in fact a book written by mere mortals trying to push their morality upon the mases and trying to explain what they do not understand
There is no miracle that has been tested by science and it could be called a miracle after that.
There has been no manifestation of god in recent history and it has not been objectively observed and recorded by an objective science mind.
We have fare better explanations for just about everything and those explanations rely on science facts and evidence. If you do not understand those explanations well then go and read a book about it do not go crying god did it.
We have no evidence, measurements or anything that would point to a god. If you think you have some think again or present it, and do not cry about it when it gets torn to pieces by the objective mind.
So why do you still cling to a imaginary friend you call god?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 316 by Dawn Bertot, posted 12-20-2010 8:23 PM Dawn Bertot has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 326 by jar, posted 12-21-2010 10:00 AM frako has not replied
 Message 332 by Dawn Bertot, posted 12-21-2010 6:44 PM frako has replied

  
frako
Member (Idle past 419 days)
Posts: 2932
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010


Message 355 of 566 (597502)
12-22-2010 4:27 AM
Reply to: Message 332 by Dawn Bertot
12-21-2010 6:44 PM


Re: How to test Dawn Bertot's writings.
Those have been explained a thousand times over
Here you have a whole page full of them and the list is most probably not compleate
Bible Inconsistencies - Bible Contradictions? » Internet Infidels
and you say all of this can be explained away i say it at least casts serious doubt.
Depending on whos explanation you accept
once you have to interpret something it cast serious doubt on its accuracy, and serius doubt on what should be interpreted and what should be read as it is. It kinda makes a mess of the whole bible.
You are entitled to atleast, your opinion. Buz has demonstrated that Israel regaining thier status as a nation, after having been scattered to the ends of the earth, that you are in possible error
That is a self fulfilling prophecy, what does that mean.
The mere fact that there is such a prophecy makes people want to fulfill it. Lets say there was a prophecy that afro Americans will rule over the whites back in the days of slavery this prophecy would be a rally point for all the afro Americans to fight their oppressors. And a prophecy whitout a relative date is bound to come true at one time it cannot fail because it has eternety to come true.
its only reasonable if your above premesis are true, they are not
My premises are true you just do not want to see that.
And why do you want to follow such an evil god that comands you to:
Exodus 21:15, 17 both say that if a child hits or curses his father, he is to be killed.
Leviticus 20:9 says that if a child curses his mother or father he is to be put to death.
Deuteronomy 21:18-21 requires stoning to death any child who is stubborn or rebellious.
Proverbs 22:15 says you should beat your foolish children with a rod.
and the bible commands you to do more atrocious things tough most Christians skip that part when they read the bible or wawe them away with one excuse or another.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 332 by Dawn Bertot, posted 12-21-2010 6:44 PM Dawn Bertot has not replied

  
frako
Member (Idle past 419 days)
Posts: 2932
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010


Message 356 of 566 (597521)
12-22-2010 10:28 AM
Reply to: Message 332 by Dawn Bertot
12-21-2010 6:44 PM


Re: How to test Dawn Bertot's writings.
Dawn take a look at this video it might help you to see past your delusion.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 332 by Dawn Bertot, posted 12-21-2010 6:44 PM Dawn Bertot has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024