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Author Topic:   Eternal Life (thanks, but no thanks)
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 232 of 296 (592989)
11-23-2010 12:46 PM
Reply to: Message 231 by herebedragons
11-23-2010 11:05 AM


Hey Mod, sorry about taking so long to reply. So many things to do, such a finite amount of time to do them in. Maybe I could get a down payment on eternity and kinda sprinkle it around when I need it
if you don't trust the character of the being that gave us an eternal soul, how could you trust the outcome or the "reward" of that condition? I seriously don't mean that as a criticism or as a statement of "you just need to have faith". Its just how could any manner of debate and thought truly resolve an issue like this? Would you agree that there is a direct correlation between lack of trust in a supreme being and lack of satisfaction with the afterlife?
This line of thinking was attempted by iano earlier in the thread (so take a look at that subthread for more details) and I'm afraid it doesn't work. People use the promise of Eternal Life as a means to persuade us to believe in God (so as to get Eternal Life). Since I don't want Eternal Life, it stands to reason it doesn't work out as a method of persuasion.
Of course, if I believed that God exists first, believed that he was all powerful, and believed that he had his shit together - then it wouldn't matter whether or not there was eternal life.
Debate could, in principle, help describe the plus sides to eternal life, posessing an eternal soul. If you are conceding that this is not possible - then the debate appears to be over.
I don't believe that God gave me an eternal soul and promised me eternal life only to make me miserable, bored and unhappy for all of eternity.
Neither do I...

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 Message 231 by herebedragons, posted 11-23-2010 11:05 AM herebedragons has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 233 by herebedragons, posted 12-02-2010 11:04 AM Modulous has seen this message but not replied

  
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 243 of 296 (595006)
12-06-2010 7:03 AM
Reply to: Message 242 by GDR
12-05-2010 9:08 PM


Re: Where is science in this?
Either way - for this thread science isn't an issue. We don't need to worry about proving Eternal Life is empirically possible or even likely: just whether or not an argument exists which demonstrates that eternal life is desirable ie., whether there is an escape from the dilemma in the OP.

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Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 245 of 296 (595214)
12-07-2010 1:40 PM
Reply to: Message 244 by GDR
12-07-2010 2:46 AM


If I had to guess I'd say yes. Essentially it is my belief that you ultimately have to choose to embrace God's call for a heart that humbly loves kindness, and a life that humbly reflects justice, or you can choose to separate yourself from God by essentially choosing love of self.
Indeed: the tyrant's choice. We get to choose between eternal joy or eternal sorrow? It's the eternal part I was asking about.
As one aspect of this world is change as experienced through our dimension of time, I have to assume that we will experience change in the next life as well whether it be the way we do now or through some way that is beyond our comprehension. Maybe we will be able to move around in time. Who knows?
I don't know. I can't get too excited about vague mysteriousness, I'm afraid.
You might want to hang around long enough to find out just what it is that you are rejecting.
I might. Or maybe I've hung around long enough? How long do you propose I need to live for to know I can say I've found out the answers to the problems raised by eternal life?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 244 by GDR, posted 12-07-2010 2:46 AM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 246 by GDR, posted 12-07-2010 6:13 PM Modulous has replied

  
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 247 of 296 (595370)
12-08-2010 9:08 AM
Reply to: Message 246 by GDR
12-07-2010 6:13 PM


Just as I can't tell you what's happening tomorrow, next week, or next year I don't have an answer. Just hang in there
I'm not asking for answers about the future. I'm asking if it is possible to construct a hypothetical eternal life which escapes the dilemma, or for any reason why the dilemma is a false one. Whether or not that hypothetical eternal life is going to come to pass in not a question I think we need worry about in this thread.

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 Message 246 by GDR, posted 12-07-2010 6:13 PM GDR has replied

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 Message 248 by GDR, posted 12-08-2010 8:41 PM Modulous has replied

  
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 249 of 296 (595577)
12-09-2010 11:31 AM
Reply to: Message 248 by GDR
12-08-2010 8:41 PM


Hypothetical is certainly the key word, although the word "guess" is probably more accurate. My guess is that consciousness/soul/spirit is eternal but IMHO we will have to wait until the next life to find out.
No, hypothetical is more accurate. I'm not asking people to guess if there is a 'next life' or what that life will be like, I'm asking for a philosophical discussion whether a certain class of 'guess' (ie., an eternal afterlife) is actually as attractive (to us non mortal beings) as some people say it is (or at least should be) as per the insistence of certain religious views.
Edited by Modulous, : No reason given.

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 Message 248 by GDR, posted 12-08-2010 8:41 PM GDR has replied

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 Message 253 by BarackZero, posted 12-13-2010 12:18 PM Modulous has replied

  
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 258 of 296 (596350)
12-14-2010 1:17 PM
Reply to: Message 255 by Just being real
12-14-2010 5:56 AM


So the thing I am wondering here Modulous, is if you are going to set up a discussion where we are conjecturing "what if" eternal life is true, then why do you still require it to strictly adhere to your conception of reality?
I'm open to better conceptions of reality if anyone is willing to provide one.
Likewise if you are going to allow for the sake of argument that there is a God, heaven, and eternal life to be had, then you have to spring for the full package which also states that you have a soul.
Agreed. The thing I want to survive is my personality, my memories, my thoughts, beliefs, opinions and so on - do you agree?
And though your body has changed since you were 18, and is not the same body, your soul though hopefully wiser and more mature, is and always will be the real you. That part of you has the ability to expand infinitely in understanding and knowledge, however it is not replicating itself. Therefore according to Christian theology, you do not ever become something entirely different from the person you are now, you merely expand upon that person.
Then I see no reason to look forward to living a billion years, I will have expanded into something I don't recognize today. All the things that I want to survive will be more than ancient history, so why should I care if my soul happens to survive? I have mentally changed as well as physically - my personality, viewpoint etc has changed agreed? So who cares if the soul is the same, the soul is meaningless in this equation.
Think of the love you feel for the person on earth to whom you are the closest. The one person in your life who gives you the greatest joy and meaning to life. Now imagine feeling that relationship grow stronger day by day forever and ever. You never become board and you keep discovering new and fascinating things about that person every day. Now imagine that feeling with someone who is an infinite creator who you could literally spend eternity discovering the depths of His love and grace.
Now imagine an eternity separated from that love. An eternity that you chose by squandering away every chance that you were given to freely receive it.
Neither seems all that great, that's kind of my point. Incidentally - if 'I' never grow bored, then that isn't me since I am easily bored and what you described sounds like it'd get pretty boring to me. So 'I' haven't survived my death at all.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 255 by Just being real, posted 12-14-2010 5:56 AM Just being real has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 270 by Just being real, posted 12-15-2010 10:23 PM Modulous has replied

  
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 259 of 296 (596497)
12-15-2010 4:48 AM
Reply to: Message 253 by BarackZero
12-13-2010 12:18 PM


Modulous the Pretend Pirate wearing a shirt too large for his neck:
A friend got married on September 19th - what can I say? My friends like to laugh at people that take themselves too seriously.
The "dilemma" you so superficially constructed is a strawman. It is as absurd as you look wearing your little pirate's hat.
That's pretty absurd.
If anyone you know presented you with a photograph of you at your high school graduation ceremony, and asked if that was you, you would of course answer in the affirmative. And yet in your opening line, you claim otherwise. You're "different" and the old you is gone. I have only heard such nonsense prattled from the godless left, speaking of which
Sounds like you misunderstood something I said. You cite my opening line 'Your followers on Earth have assured me that I will live forever.' Maybe you were referring to a different line?
2. Your first two words, Mister Pirate, are "Dear God." So clearly you are not addressing anyone who posts on this forum.
You should probably read closer, my serious friend. I specifically directed the comments to the members of this board just moments later.
quote:
I have a few questions about this immortality, that I think it is vital you answer for me. Failing that, perhaps you can inspire some of your followers who are members here to tell me.
Moreover, since you are a militant atheist, you are also self-contradictory, writing to the "supernatural" being you have denied countless times.
How unscholarly of you.
Yes, it's unscholarly to generate a counter-argument by assuming the opposing view is correct and seeing where it leads. And God forbid (hah!) that we use style, or rhetorical flourish eh?
4. The pretense that your bizarre creation of a "dilemma" applies to everyone else is something else you need to explain. For Stephen Hawking, who has been confined to a wheelchair for most of his life, one might think that he would welcome the transition to a new status where he could spend a good deal more time enjoying himself than he has spent here on earth.
I have not claimed that either
1) This dilemma applies to anyone else (and have indeed stressed this is my personal subjective opinion)
2) That an extended life, with health and comfort is undesireable.
Did you have any objections, or did you just want to create a strawman that is as absurd as my wearing a paper hat?

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Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 276 of 296 (596634)
12-16-2010 2:35 AM
Reply to: Message 270 by Just being real
12-15-2010 10:23 PM


Yes absolutely!! And that is what we are taught in the scriptures. We will have all of or memories from here. But the afflictions we endured now will pale like a candle to the sun in comparison to the glory we will experience then.
I mentioned more than just my memories.
Well I think this is a really skewed point of view. It's like a baby in its mothers womb saying it doesn't want to be born and live for the next 70 years or so because it will have forgotten all about the warm comforts of its life in the womb it enjoyed for the last nine months.
That prong of the dilemma is one in which I declare 'I don't care'. Much like the baby doesn't care about a business contract that will turn sour 50 years after it gets born.
Likewise now it is not revealed to us what we shall be like, but we know that when He appears we shall be like Him. And it has not even entered into the most wildest imaginations of man, what it shall be like when we are there. We know it shall be glorious beyond all comprehension.
That's not a particularly compelling argument right now though, is it?

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Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 282 of 296 (596817)
12-17-2010 4:26 AM
Reply to: Message 277 by New Cat's Eye
12-16-2010 1:39 PM


You're still you.
Tautology.
You can't be anything else but you, yourself
Tautology.
You change, changing doesn't make you not-you
What do you mean by 'you'? See Message 8 for potentially relevant thoughts on this issue.

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 Message 277 by New Cat's Eye, posted 12-16-2010 1:39 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

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 Message 291 by New Cat's Eye, posted 12-20-2010 11:52 AM Modulous has replied

  
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 284 of 296 (596973)
12-18-2010 6:37 PM
Reply to: Message 283 by Omnivorous
12-18-2010 5:24 PM


What is the topic of the gaps?
Perhaps we can hammer out formal definitions of "god of the gaps" and "science of the gaps" arguments. The exchange of cases was useful but lengthy. If you agree, I'll draft my own definition for "god of the gaps" arguments, while you tackle the "science of the gaps". I suspect we won't finally agree on either, but it would be interesting to identify what, precisely, is left in dispute.
Sounds like a great idea for an OP, he hinted unsubtly

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 Message 283 by Omnivorous, posted 12-18-2010 5:24 PM Omnivorous has replied

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Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 292 of 296 (597212)
12-20-2010 12:13 PM
Reply to: Message 291 by New Cat's Eye
12-20-2010 11:52 AM


Those being tautologies means that your position is a contradiction
Only if I claimed that I am not me. Which I haven't
Of course you're always going to be you. Its wrong that because you were so much different when you were younger that it wasn't you who, say, stole that candy from the store. No, it was you who did it even if you've changed since then.
And this leads us to wondering why we should care if we survive 10,000 million years into the future, if the 'me' that is there is so radically changed - the 'me' that is here now simply can't find any reason to care about the fate of that being and it wouldn't matter if it didn't even exist.
The parts that are 'me' that I want to preserve in 'eternal life' have not been preserved - so who cares?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 291 by New Cat's Eye, posted 12-20-2010 11:52 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 293 by New Cat's Eye, posted 12-20-2010 12:32 PM Modulous has replied

  
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 294 of 296 (597236)
12-20-2010 2:20 PM
Reply to: Message 293 by New Cat's Eye
12-20-2010 12:32 PM


Which is assuming that you're going to change so much that you're not going to be you anymore.
You're still gonna be you, so I don't see the problem.
But what 'I' am is different to what 'I' was, and what 'I' will be. There is an unbroken chain from me to the first life forms on earth, and a great deal of change has occurred in a few billion years, but that is quite different than arguing that 'I', in any sense that matters to 'me', has survived 4 billion years.
Obviously the tautology is true, but I don't care about the tautology. I care about whether or not in 25 billion years there will be something that exists that I can be associated with strongly enough for me to care about it. I doubt very much that this could be the case.
You should care the same way you care about whether or not you'll see tomorrow.
But I think we can agree that tomorrow I'll be largely the same person I am today, with little difference. The same knowledge, the same loves, hates, goals, personality etc etc.
It doesn't matter if you push it out 10,000 years, you're still gonna be there the day before that, and the day before that, and the day before that, all the way back to tomorrow and today.
True - but I don't care about the guy 10,000 years from now who is going to be very different from the guy sat here today so I don't care that that guy will exist one day.
What is it that you want to survive? If I said that your perception will continue, but you will have no memories and none of the same personality, would you care?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 293 by New Cat's Eye, posted 12-20-2010 12:32 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 295 by New Cat's Eye, posted 12-20-2010 2:44 PM Modulous has replied

  
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 296 of 296 (597279)
12-20-2010 5:41 PM
Reply to: Message 295 by New Cat's Eye
12-20-2010 2:44 PM


I wouldn't find myself thrilled to learn that when I die, my perception continues, but I forget everything that happened to me, my personality is evacuated etc etc. That's the 'me' I'm talking about it, and it is dead at the point of this 'mind wipe'.
You can just point me to a post if you've already explained it. Pardon me for not reading through the whole thread
If it makes it any easier - I've only written 57 points - and most of those are clearly about a different angle than this entirely
As well as the one I already referenced try Message 77 and Message 113 - the latter post especially gives an accounting of my position on the matter you've raised in much more detail.

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