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Author Topic:   Can a valid, supportable reason be offered for deconversion
jar
Member
Posts: 34061
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 181 of 566 (596522)
12-15-2010 12:29 PM
Reply to: Message 179 by Dawn Bertot
12-15-2010 12:21 PM


Re: scriptural unity
Dawn Bertot writes:
Dr Adequate writes:
Clearly Jesus did not fulfill this prediction.
Of course he did, its the church and he and his apostles make that known in both thier verbage and the evidence
Do you have any evidence that the church is not the kingdom the prophets spoke of?
Dawn Bertot
Of course there is even a thread devoted to examining that very question. However you so far have refused to even bring your allegations to the thread where they could be examined and instead simply try to change the subject here instead of responding to the issue that are actually related to this topic.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 179 by Dawn Bertot, posted 12-15-2010 12:21 PM Dawn Bertot has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 185 by Dawn Bertot, posted 12-15-2010 12:40 PM jar has replied

  
Dawn Bertot
Member (Idle past 168 days)
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


Message 182 of 566 (596523)
12-15-2010 12:32 PM
Reply to: Message 176 by jar
12-15-2010 11:37 AM


Re: The purpose of repetition.
x
Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 176 by jar, posted 12-15-2010 11:37 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 184 by jar, posted 12-15-2010 12:37 PM Dawn Bertot has replied

  
Dawn Bertot
Member (Idle past 168 days)
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


Message 183 of 566 (596524)
12-15-2010 12:36 PM
Reply to: Message 176 by jar
12-15-2010 11:37 AM


Re: The purpose of repetition.
The purpose of repetition is to point out to all that you have not responded to the issues raised or questions asked.
Since I have answered your question several times and demonstrated the the Koran is not on a par with the scriptures, that it is just a copy of OT stories strung together, with no purpose or theme, your above comment is therefore invalid
And the purpose of pointing you towards the other thread was to allow you the opportunity to present support for your many assertions that there are Old Testament prophecies that refer to or are related to Jesus and that Jesus somehow fulfilled some of those prophecies.
It is interesting that you do not respond to any of those requests except by continuing to claim such support without actually specifying anything that can then be questioned, verified or tested.
Again your style of discussion does not promote debate, it consists of you repeating yourself. there is no reason to believe you wont do it there as well
I have provided as much support for those prophecies as evidence will allow
If you think you have something better than an inspired writer, then go ahead and present it
You see Jar, as in design, it comes down to the available evidence. Your disagreement with the NT is not sufficent to pass as evidence. You would need to demonstrate that the NT is inaccurate and unreliable
Dawn Bertot
Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 176 by jar, posted 12-15-2010 11:37 AM jar has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 188 by Taq, posted 12-15-2010 1:05 PM Dawn Bertot has replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 34061
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 184 of 566 (596525)
12-15-2010 12:37 PM
Reply to: Message 182 by Dawn Bertot
12-15-2010 12:32 PM


Re: The purpose of repetition.
And as usual, you have simply posted nonsense.
I have never made that claim.
If you have responded to the issues I have raised, then perhaps you can provide links to those messages.
In case you have forgotten what they are, I will repeat them yet again.
quote:
Dawn Bertot writes:
A good portion of the Bible is Messianic, which demonstrates unity of purpose
So you claim, but which would still not indicate 'unity of purpose'. In addition you have offered no evidence that much of the Bible is messianic or that Jesus is in anyway related to any of the messianic passages.
Dawn Bertot writes:
None of these were of course the Messiah mentioned in Genesis 3:15 or the one in Isa 51, that would be called, mighty God, eternal father and Prince of Peace, fulfilled clearly in Christ in the New Law, correct?
So you claim but there is no mention of a messiah in Genesis 3 and the Messiah in Isaiah is most certainly not Christ.
If you think you can support those assertions there is a thread looking for No webpage found at provided URL: Prophecy supposedly fulfilled by Jesus. Feel free to try to support your assertion there.
AbE:
Why if I look and find that there is no unity of doctrine and theme in the Bible (which is pretty obvious to anyone that understands there is not even such a thing as "The Bible") is that not sufficient and supportable reason to throw away the god and religion you try to market?
If I find the Bible to be just a collection of writings on a variety of subjects addressed to people of different eras and cultures, why is that not sufficient?

Note the bolded parts.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 182 by Dawn Bertot, posted 12-15-2010 12:32 PM Dawn Bertot has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 186 by Dawn Bertot, posted 12-15-2010 12:52 PM jar has replied
 Message 187 by Dawn Bertot, posted 12-15-2010 12:58 PM jar has replied

  
Dawn Bertot
Member (Idle past 168 days)
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


Message 185 of 566 (596528)
12-15-2010 12:40 PM
Reply to: Message 181 by jar
12-15-2010 12:29 PM


Re: scriptural unity
Of course there is even a thread devoted to examining that very question. However you so far have refused to even bring your allegations to the thread where they could be examined and instead simply try to change the subject here instead of responding to the issue that are actually related to this topic.
Your free to address my allegations here as long as it does not get to far off topic
Do you have something better than an inspired Apostle?
Dawn Bertot

This message is a reply to:
 Message 181 by jar, posted 12-15-2010 12:29 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 196 by jar, posted 12-15-2010 2:11 PM Dawn Bertot has not replied

  
Dawn Bertot
Member (Idle past 168 days)
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


Message 186 of 566 (596529)
12-15-2010 12:52 PM
Reply to: Message 184 by jar
12-15-2010 12:37 PM


Re: The purpose of repetition.
So you claim, but which would still not indicate 'unity of purpose'. In addition you have offered no evidence that much of the Bible is messianic or that Jesus is in anyway related to any of the messianic passages.
Wrong. You have given me no valid reason why I should accept your conclusions concerning the prophets, verses what an isnspired writer has claimed
First provide why I should accept your conclusions over thiers, then of course we can look at your specific reasons
Unity of purpose is signified by the Apostles designation and classification of those prophecies
Again, demonstrate why I should not accept the NT, inspired conclusions
Your probably looking for a physical king as were the Jews
Dawn Bertot

This message is a reply to:
 Message 184 by jar, posted 12-15-2010 12:37 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 197 by jar, posted 12-15-2010 2:13 PM Dawn Bertot has not replied

  
Dawn Bertot
Member (Idle past 168 days)
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


Message 187 of 566 (596530)
12-15-2010 12:58 PM
Reply to: Message 184 by jar
12-15-2010 12:37 PM


Re: The purpose of repetition.
If you think you can support those assertions there is a thread looking for Prophecy supposedly fulfilled by Jesus. Feel free to try to support your assertion there.
I dont need to do anything, the NT inspired writers have already done it for me.
Can you demonstrate why they are wrong? do you have knowledge they did not? Where you there as they were to witness these things
here is what you dont understand about critical thinking.
It comes down to me believing you or them. If you say they are wrong, then there is noway for me to know abosolutely who is right or wrong. So with the available evidence provided not only by eyewitnesses, but the rest of the evidence in the NT, I have to say I will choose them
That is unless you can provide something better
Can you?
Here is another way you fail in critical thinking. Your trying to use passages out of a book (the OT), you dont even believe to be accurate or reliable in the first place to demonstrate why the ones in the NT are wrong. Does that make sense to you?
If you have no confidence in the accuracy of the OT passages to be true to begin with, how in the world would you know that anything written anywhere else is not accurate concerning those same passages
That is you do not trust the authorship, content or accuracy, but you have no way to demonstrate that those events are not true to begin with and your using THEM to demonstrate the inaccuracy of something else
In one instance (the OT )you assume or imply that the author is accurate, for the sake of argument, to demonstrate the NT is wrong. All the while knowing to yourself and believing he is not the author and nothing he said can be trusted.
Its almost hypocrital behavoir
Strange logic and why do you care if both are untrue?
Dawn Bertot
Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.
Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 184 by jar, posted 12-15-2010 12:37 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 198 by jar, posted 12-15-2010 2:13 PM Dawn Bertot has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10158
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 4.4


Message 188 of 566 (596532)
12-15-2010 1:05 PM
Reply to: Message 183 by Dawn Bertot
12-15-2010 12:36 PM


Re: The purpose of repetition.
I have provided as much support for those prophecies as evidence will allow
If someone finds that evidence to be insufficient would this be a valid reason for deconversion?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 183 by Dawn Bertot, posted 12-15-2010 12:36 PM Dawn Bertot has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 189 by Dawn Bertot, posted 12-15-2010 1:07 PM Taq has replied

  
Dawn Bertot
Member (Idle past 168 days)
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


Message 189 of 566 (596533)
12-15-2010 1:07 PM
Reply to: Message 188 by Taq
12-15-2010 1:05 PM


Re: The purpose of repetition.
If someone finds that evidence to be insufficient would this be a valid reason for deconversion?
Let me correct that Please. define insufficient from a evidential standpoint
Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 188 by Taq, posted 12-15-2010 1:05 PM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 194 by Taq, posted 12-15-2010 1:43 PM Dawn Bertot has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 497 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 190 of 566 (596536)
12-15-2010 1:22 PM
Reply to: Message 179 by Dawn Bertot
12-15-2010 12:21 PM


Re: scriptural unity
Dawn Bertot writes:
... DA disagrees that Jesus Christ is a Spiritual king over the Church (Spiritual Israel)....
"Spiritual" really is a useful incantation, isn't it? It can magically remove all contradictions.
Adam and Eve didn't die a physical death that same day; they died a "spiritual death". Jesus wasn't an actual king of an actual kingdom; He was/is a "spiritual king" of a "spiritual kingdom". Black isn't really black; it's "spiritual white".
One good reason for deconversion is the doubletalk and doublethink required to believe such nonsense.

"I'm Rory Bellows, I tell you! And I got a lot of corroborating evidence... over here... by the throttle!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 179 by Dawn Bertot, posted 12-15-2010 12:21 PM Dawn Bertot has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 191 by Dawn Bertot, posted 12-15-2010 1:31 PM ringo has replied

  
Dawn Bertot
Member (Idle past 168 days)
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


Message 191 of 566 (596537)
12-15-2010 1:31 PM
Reply to: Message 190 by ringo
12-15-2010 1:22 PM


Re: scriptural unity
"Spiritual" really is a useful incantation, isn't it? It can magically remove all contradictions.
Adam and Eve didn't die a physical death that same day; they died a "spiritual death". Jesus wasn't an actual king of an actual kingdom; He was/is a "spiritual king" of a "spiritual kingdom". Black isn't really black; it's "spiritual white".
One good reason for deconversion is the doubletalk and doublethink required to believe such nonsense.
This may be true and in some instances it may work. however, one would need to discard the information contained in the NTand those writers
Its no surprise that even today there are still people looking for a physical king, when that was never Gods intention to begin with
Gods words to Samuel apply.
Samuel they dont need a physical king, they have a king,. Im thier king. They have not rejected you they have rejected me
Im sorry you consider it nonesense, that is your right
read it as it was intended and the unity and purpose will be obvious
Dawn Bertot
Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 190 by ringo, posted 12-15-2010 1:22 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 193 by ringo, posted 12-15-2010 1:41 PM Dawn Bertot has not replied

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 6421
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 4.1


Message 192 of 566 (596539)
12-15-2010 1:40 PM
Reply to: Message 180 by Dawn Bertot
12-15-2010 12:27 PM


Re: scriptural unity
Dawn Bertot writes:
I noticed you have 300 and something posts to my 2200, do you think your tactics will work? Your a sad excuse at attempts to intimidate. If cavediver couldnt do it, you have no chance. He tried for several years
Ill tell you and keep telling you, your wasting your time son
perhaps you could actually present an argument to the topic of the thread. As of yet, I dont remember any attempt by yourself
A classic demonstration of the Dunning—Kruger effect
Edited by nwr, : fix broken url as per Message 1

Jesus was a liberal hippie

This message is a reply to:
 Message 180 by Dawn Bertot, posted 12-15-2010 12:27 PM Dawn Bertot has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 497 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 193 of 566 (596540)
12-15-2010 1:41 PM
Reply to: Message 191 by Dawn Bertot
12-15-2010 1:31 PM


Re: scriptural unity
Dawn Bertot writes:
however, one would need to discard the information contained in the NTand those writers
That's exactly the point. Without the "spiritual" mumbo-jumbo that you inject, the New Testament should be rejected as fulfillment of Old Testament prophecy. You're pre-accepting the fulfillment instead of looking at it honestly to see if it's there.
That kind of backwards thinking is the cause of a lot of deconversion.
Dawn Bertot writes:
read it as it was intended and the unity and purpose will be obvious
Again, that's the problem, not the solution. You're predetermining the intention and mangling the text to fit your preconceptions.
Edited by ringo, : Spalling.

"I'm Rory Bellows, I tell you! And I got a lot of corroborating evidence... over here... by the throttle!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 191 by Dawn Bertot, posted 12-15-2010 1:31 PM Dawn Bertot has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10158
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 4.4


Message 194 of 566 (596541)
12-15-2010 1:43 PM
Reply to: Message 189 by Dawn Bertot
12-15-2010 1:07 PM


Re: The purpose of repetition.
Let me correct that Please. define insufficient from a evidential standpoint
For instance, the need to insert "spiritual" in order to explain away contradictory evidence.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 189 by Dawn Bertot, posted 12-15-2010 1:07 PM Dawn Bertot has not replied

  
Panda
Member (Idle past 3798 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 195 of 566 (596543)
12-15-2010 1:55 PM
Reply to: Message 180 by Dawn Bertot
12-15-2010 12:27 PM


Re: scriptural unity
Dawn writes:
I noticed you have 300 and something posts to my 2200, do you think your tactics will work? Your a sad excuse at attempts to intimidate. If cavediver couldnt do it, you have no chance. He tried for several years
Do you think that makes sense?
Without trying I see 7 errors: 7 errors in 4 short sentences.
I have to add and remove words to get them to even begin to make sense.
Dawn writes:
Ill tell you and keep telling you, your wasting your time son
It appears that getting you to answer a question is a waste of time - but I am persistent.
Dawn writes:
perhaps you could actually present an argument to the topic of the thread. As of yet, I dont remember any attempt by yourself
Perhaps you could explain why your English is so abysmal?
You claim to be a scholar, but you can't read or write properly.
Why should anyone believe your claims at being educated when all you do is convey someone that failed at school?
Edited by Panda, : No reason given.
Edited by Panda, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 180 by Dawn Bertot, posted 12-15-2010 12:27 PM Dawn Bertot has not replied

  
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