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Author Topic:   Creationism - a clearer picture?
Theo
Inactive Junior Member


Message 13 of 64 (5966)
03-02-2002 1:35 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by TrueCreation
03-02-2002 1:03 AM


I find the lack of understanding in these posts of what creationism claims to be appalling. The straw man fallacy is repeated over and over.
I suggest that if one want's to understand the creationist view before critiquing it they read Oliver Wendel Bird's two volume set "The Origin of the Species Revisited." Evolutionist scientists recommend it. In volume one he reviews the scientific data. In volume two he reviews the philosophy of science, definitions of science and legalities. He does not address the issue of the Young Earth however.
If one did their homework they would find that creationism does make testable predictions. I have found no one critical of creationism in these posts that even have a clue as to what they are. Shouldn't one know what one is critiquing before one critiques it?
Evolution made predictions, mutation and natural selection for change from a single cell to man and then when science proved that mutation and natural selection could not have done this, evolution simply changed the theory to punctuated equilibrium to explain the lack of evidence. Yet Punk Eek cannot provide a mechanism. This is blind faith and begging the question. One cannot interpret the evidence in light of one's beliefs. That method will always confirm one's original beliefs. That's what evolution has done. Popper's criteria of falsifiability as part of the definition of science apparently doesn't apply to evolution science. Evolution science is to plastic violating definitions of science. For starters on testable predictions, creationism predicts the first and second laws of thermodynamics which evolution science violates.
We'll go from there
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theo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by TrueCreation, posted 03-02-2002 1:03 AM TrueCreation has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by LudvanB, posted 03-02-2002 1:41 AM Theo has not replied
 Message 15 by joz, posted 03-02-2002 1:58 AM Theo has not replied
 Message 16 by joz, posted 03-02-2002 2:10 AM Theo has not replied
 Message 17 by Darwin Storm, posted 03-02-2002 2:26 AM Theo has replied
 Message 20 by Quetzal, posted 03-02-2002 5:30 AM Theo has replied
 Message 52 by quicksink, posted 03-06-2002 4:37 AM Theo has not replied

  
Theo
Inactive Junior Member


Message 45 of 64 (6118)
03-04-2002 11:17 AM
Reply to: Message 20 by Quetzal
03-02-2002 5:30 AM


Quetzal,
I agree with much of your response. I have made multiple assertions in many posts without proper referencing which I have promised to make good on and will do so but let me clarify one thing. Allopatric evolution is not a mechanism. It still does not explain the mechanism of Goldschmidt's hopeful monster theory that Gould and others have labelled punctuated mechanism. It is simply a postulate as to why, with darwinian evolution's prediction of finding many transitional forms, there aren't any. What mechanism causes the sudden new morphology of irreducible complexity? There still isn't one.
The Wistar institute did the math in the sixties and concluded that even with 4 billion years, mutation and natural selection cannot account for the macro-evolutionary changes embraced on faith by macro-evolutionists. That was part of the push to punctuated equilibrium.
The Bible predicts the first law of thermodynamics when in Genesis it says God quit creating and the second law is predicted in Genesis when God put the curses put on Adam and eve which is referred to in Romans eight when it says the creation waits to be delivered from the bondage of decay. As well, the Bible predicts the law of biogenesis given to us by Pasteur which evolution violates. More later. I am at work and have to go
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theo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by Quetzal, posted 03-02-2002 5:30 AM Quetzal has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 46 by joz, posted 03-04-2002 11:28 AM Theo has not replied
 Message 50 by Quetzal, posted 03-05-2002 3:30 AM Theo has not replied

  
Theo
Inactive Junior Member


Message 56 of 64 (6274)
03-08-2002 12:23 AM
Reply to: Message 55 by quicksink
03-07-2002 3:17 AM


Quicksink,
Ad-hoc/Ad-hominem attacks are a sign of ignorance. I enjoyed your fictional piece however and by the way I am a guy. I'm sure you are aware that personal attacks and denial are not refutation.
Quetzal,
Punk Eek does not have a mechanism as I stated. Here's why: The original postulated mechanism was mutation and natural selection. Natural selection selects the beneficial mutation. Over time this was to lead to macro-evolution, change of kinds, not just speciation. Creationists accept speciation and natural selection (which was originally postulated by Creationist Edward Blythe 30 years prior to Darwin's origin of the species). We do not believe that kinds have changed. In another string people were fussing over kinds which most creationists will define as groupings above species. Dogs v cats, reptiles v mammals, birds v reptiles. The fossil record bears this out as no transitional forms have ever been found and Darwin predicted that they would. You claimed that there were lots of transitional formsl. Go ahead name some,hell, name one. In the sixties the Wistar Institute's report concluded, not that evolution was impossible, but that there was not enough time for mutation and natural selection to account for macro-evolution i.e. change between kinds. In response Gould and Eldridge modified Gouldschmit and came up with Punk Eek. However, the morphology of irreducible complexity I referred to, cannot be explained by mutation and natural selection via geographical boundaries. By the way morphology is simply structures and irreducible complexity just means that the interdependent structures do not have halfway forms. They must be whole and intact or nothing. Darwin referred to this at the end of the origin of the species in the last chapter titled problems with the theory. His original analysis of complete complex structures was correct. A wing cannot have half feathers or half musculature to power them. Gould and Eldridge have postulated about irreducible structures spontaneously arising referring to bursts of evolution within the geological boundaries. The problem is still what would cause the sudden morphology that then was naturally selected? There is no known mechanism and mutation has been demonstrated to be incapable. All punk eek has is natural selection via geography but no cause of the structure that is selected. Hence no mechanism.
Next, the law of biogenesis. Gee, I learned that phrasing from my High School Biology class. You claim it is only an observation,however; there has never been an exception observed. That's pretty much the definition of a natural law. Repeated observations without exceptions.
As well, the Bible doesn't have to use the latin phrases does it? Since Greek and Hebrew and Aramaic (the original Biblical languages, mostly Greek and Hebrew) predate latin that just doesn't seem fair. The concepts are there, however. In Genesis it says (in Hebrew) that God quit creating. No more creation is the first law of thermodynamics, no more matter, a constant amount, just transition of one to the other (Vacuum fluctuations are things by the way which require energy by the way and require particle accelerators which are artifical designs and constructions by man.) Steady state is still just a hypothesis.
Entropy is also in Romans eight which I already posted, but again, it says the Creation waits to be delivered from it's bonday to decay. The translation is from the New American Standard Bible, which is a word for word translation from the Greek. One of the best translations available.
Both of these predictions of natural laws that are in the Bible and contradicted by macro-evolution.
So somebody please explain the mechanism of Punk Eek without just rehashing selection via geography. That is an incomplete explanation. As well, how would one falsify Punk Eek?
------------------
theo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by quicksink, posted 03-07-2002 3:17 AM quicksink has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 58 by joz, posted 03-08-2002 12:58 AM Theo has not replied
 Message 59 by joz, posted 03-08-2002 1:02 AM Theo has not replied
 Message 64 by Quetzal, posted 03-08-2002 8:02 AM Theo has not replied

  
Theo
Inactive Junior Member


Message 57 of 64 (6276)
03-08-2002 12:53 AM
Reply to: Message 17 by Darwin Storm
03-02-2002 2:26 AM


This is for Darwin Storms questions:
I believe that macro-evoltion violates the first and second laws of thermodynamics because the first law has seen no exceptions (vacuum fluctuations not withstanding see previous post). Creationists generally believe that for macro-evolution to be true it must account for the origin of matter via a natural cause. There appears to be no satisfactory natural explanation, the Big Bang has too many problems such as too much unburned hydrogen, the angular momentum of galaxies, the origin of the original super compressed hydrogen egg etc... The alt's are steady state or oscillating both of which have many problems as well. Oscillating universe just delays the question, where did the original matter come from? It seems that these theories are super-natural by definition as super just means beyond. If there are no natural mechanisms as explanations and one still believes that there will be a natural cause found one day, then by definition that is a super-natural explanation.
The second law is entropy. The property of matter to move to simplicity. In order for macro-evolution to be true creationists believe adherents have to demonstrate an inherent self-organizing property of matter, which has never been observed. This would be crucial to the first cell forming and then being able to replicate and then move towards complexity, multiple celled animals ect. That's why we make such a big deal of the first cell, then single cell to man. By no known natural mechanism can a cell form by chance then evolve to the complexity of man no matter how much time is given. It is a violation of Entropy. False responses will tell you that if a system has an influx of material and energy that localized reversals of entropy are possible but they leave out the fact that to utilize the materials and energy a 'program' is needed but a program has always required intelligence to preceed it. In the case of life, the program is DNA but it is too complex to ever have occurred by chance.
Hence we believe that macro-evolution theory violates the first two laws but creation science predicts them.
------------------
theo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by Darwin Storm, posted 03-02-2002 2:26 AM Darwin Storm has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 60 by joz, posted 03-08-2002 1:14 AM Theo has replied
 Message 63 by Darwin Storm, posted 03-08-2002 4:05 AM Theo has not replied

  
Theo
Inactive Junior Member


Message 61 of 64 (6285)
03-08-2002 3:42 AM
Reply to: Message 60 by joz
03-08-2002 1:14 AM


Your responses are incredibly selective, quoting only part of what I said and ignoring the part that refutes you.
As I said, what is the mechanism (i.e. mutation)that produces irreducible morphology to be selected by geographical boundaries. Mutation has been shown not to be able to produce irreducible morphology. I asked for someone to complete the punk eek mechanism w/o reviewing the geographical selection and all you did was reiterate the geography & mutation argument. One more time. What produces the irreducible morphology? Mutation cannot accomplish that. = NO MECHANISM Other posts have recognized that (the saltation posts)
As well, you ignored the necessity of a program to utilize energy & materials to have a localized reversal of entropy which I warned about. And you have the gall to ask if I can read? Lighten up!
------------------
theo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by joz, posted 03-08-2002 1:14 AM joz has not replied

  
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