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Author Topic:   Can a valid, supportable reason be offered for deconversion
jar
Member
Posts: 34136
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 181 of 566 (596522)
12-15-2010 12:29 PM
Reply to: Message 179 by Dawn Bertot
12-15-2010 12:21 PM


Re: scriptural unity
Dawn Bertot writes:
Dr Adequate writes:
Clearly Jesus did not fulfill this prediction.
Of course he did, its the church and he and his apostles make that known in both thier verbage and the evidence
Do you have any evidence that the church is not the kingdom the prophets spoke of?
Dawn Bertot
Of course there is even a thread devoted to examining that very question. However you so far have refused to even bring your allegations to the thread where they could be examined and instead simply try to change the subject here instead of responding to the issue that are actually related to this topic.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 179 by Dawn Bertot, posted 12-15-2010 12:21 PM Dawn Bertot has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 185 by Dawn Bertot, posted 12-15-2010 12:40 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 34136
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 184 of 566 (596525)
12-15-2010 12:37 PM
Reply to: Message 182 by Dawn Bertot
12-15-2010 12:32 PM


Re: The purpose of repetition.
And as usual, you have simply posted nonsense.
I have never made that claim.
If you have responded to the issues I have raised, then perhaps you can provide links to those messages.
In case you have forgotten what they are, I will repeat them yet again.
quote:
Dawn Bertot writes:
A good portion of the Bible is Messianic, which demonstrates unity of purpose
So you claim, but which would still not indicate 'unity of purpose'. In addition you have offered no evidence that much of the Bible is messianic or that Jesus is in anyway related to any of the messianic passages.
Dawn Bertot writes:
None of these were of course the Messiah mentioned in Genesis 3:15 or the one in Isa 51, that would be called, mighty God, eternal father and Prince of Peace, fulfilled clearly in Christ in the New Law, correct?
So you claim but there is no mention of a messiah in Genesis 3 and the Messiah in Isaiah is most certainly not Christ.
If you think you can support those assertions there is a thread looking for No webpage found at provided URL: Prophecy supposedly fulfilled by Jesus. Feel free to try to support your assertion there.
AbE:
Why if I look and find that there is no unity of doctrine and theme in the Bible (which is pretty obvious to anyone that understands there is not even such a thing as "The Bible") is that not sufficient and supportable reason to throw away the god and religion you try to market?
If I find the Bible to be just a collection of writings on a variety of subjects addressed to people of different eras and cultures, why is that not sufficient?

Note the bolded parts.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 182 by Dawn Bertot, posted 12-15-2010 12:32 PM Dawn Bertot has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 186 by Dawn Bertot, posted 12-15-2010 12:52 PM jar has replied
 Message 187 by Dawn Bertot, posted 12-15-2010 12:58 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 34136
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 196 of 566 (596544)
12-15-2010 2:11 PM
Reply to: Message 185 by Dawn Bertot
12-15-2010 12:40 PM


Re: scriptural unity
Why if I look and find that there is no unity of doctrine and theme in the Bible (which is pretty obvious to anyone that understands there is not even such a thing as "The Bible") is that not sufficient and supportable reason to throw away the god and religion you try to market?
If I find the Bible to be just a collection of writings on a variety of subjects addressed to people of different eras and cultures, why is that not sufficient?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 185 by Dawn Bertot, posted 12-15-2010 12:40 PM Dawn Bertot has not replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 34136
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 197 of 566 (596545)
12-15-2010 2:13 PM
Reply to: Message 186 by Dawn Bertot
12-15-2010 12:52 PM


Re: The purpose of repetition.
When you actually tell us which so called prophecies you are referring to, then we can address them.
in the mean time:
Why if I look and find that there is no unity of doctrine and theme in the Bible (which is pretty obvious to anyone that understands there is not even such a thing as "The Bible") is that not sufficient and supportable reason to throw away the god and religion you try to market?
If I find the Bible to be just a collection of writings on a variety of subjects addressed to people of different eras and cultures, why is that not sufficient?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 186 by Dawn Bertot, posted 12-15-2010 12:52 PM Dawn Bertot has not replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 34136
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 198 of 566 (596546)
12-15-2010 2:13 PM
Reply to: Message 187 by Dawn Bertot
12-15-2010 12:58 PM


Re: The purpose of repetition.
Why if I look and find that there is no unity of doctrine and theme in the Bible (which is pretty obvious to anyone that understands there is not even such a thing as "The Bible") is that not sufficient and supportable reason to throw away the god and religion you try to market?
If I find the Bible to be just a collection of writings on a variety of subjects addressed to people of different eras and cultures, why is that not sufficient?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 187 by Dawn Bertot, posted 12-15-2010 12:58 PM Dawn Bertot has not replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 34136
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 215 of 566 (596602)
12-15-2010 7:32 PM
Reply to: Message 210 by dwise1
12-15-2010 7:20 PM


The Nazareth passage
That is not from anything related to Canonized books, but more likely from Jewish oral tradition.
But it is another great example of "False Prophecy".
The purpose of prophecy was a dope slap from God, not fortune telling, and definitely not intentionally doing something simply to build legitimacy.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 210 by dwise1, posted 12-15-2010 7:20 PM dwise1 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 293 by dwise1, posted 12-19-2010 8:39 PM jar has seen this message but not replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 34136
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 226 of 566 (596653)
12-16-2010 10:53 AM
Reply to: Message 222 by Dawn Bertot
12-16-2010 3:32 AM


More scriptural misrepresentation.
And, of course, Isaiah 50 is NOT talking about Jesus but is just another example of taking things out of context.
Here is the passage in context.
quote:
Israel’s Sin and the Servant’s Obedience
1 This is what the LORD says:
Where is your mother’s certificate of divorce
with which I sent her away?
Or to which of my creditors
did I sell you?
Because of your sins you were sold;
because of your transgressions your mother was sent away.
2 When I came, why was there no one?
When I called, why was there no one to answer?
Was my arm too short to deliver you?
Do I lack the strength to rescue you?
By a mere rebuke I dry up the sea,
I turn rivers into a desert;
their fish rot for lack of water
and die of thirst.
3 I clothe the heavens with darkness
and make sackcloth its covering.
4 The Sovereign LORD has given me a well-instructed tongue,
to know the word that sustains the weary.
He wakens me morning by morning,
wakens my ear to listen like one being instructed.
5 The Sovereign LORD has opened my ears;
I have not been rebellious,
I have not turned away.
6 I offered my back to those who beat me,
my cheeks to those who pulled out my beard;
I did not hide my face
from mocking and spitting.
7 Because the Sovereign LORD helps me,
I will not be disgraced.
Therefore have I set my face like flint,
and I know I will not be put to shame.
8 He who vindicates me is near.
Who then will bring charges against me?
Let us face each other!
Who is my accuser?
Let him confront me!
9 It is the Sovereign LORD who helps me.
Who will condemn me?
They will all wear out like a garment;
the moths will eat them up.
10 Who among you fears the LORD
and obeys the word of his servant?
Let the one who walks in the dark,
who has no light,
trust in the name of the LORD
and rely on their God.
11 But now, all you who light fires
and provide yourselves with flaming torches,
go, walk in the light of your fires
and of the torches you have set ablaze.
This is what you shall receive from my hand:
You will lie down in torment.
As in other such examples of quote mined misrepresentation, this passage from Isaiah is NOT talking about Jesus but rather the then current state of Israel and the fact that God allowed Israel to be conquered.
Take your allegations and assertions over to the thread where they might actually be on topic, here they simply show that you really don't have a clue what is in the Bible or even what prophecy is about.
But if it was prophecy about Jesus, then the evidence is that it is a failed prophecy since there is no evidence that such an event even happened.
Edited by jar, : left the t offn event

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 222 by Dawn Bertot, posted 12-16-2010 3:32 AM Dawn Bertot has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 238 by arachnophilia, posted 12-16-2010 1:30 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 34136
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 229 of 566 (596659)
12-16-2010 11:24 AM
Reply to: Message 228 by Theodoric
12-16-2010 11:22 AM


Re: Are you ignoring me Dawn?
It would be the catholic (as in universal) church.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 228 by Theodoric, posted 12-16-2010 11:22 AM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 231 by Theodoric, posted 12-16-2010 11:27 AM jar has replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 34136
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 232 of 566 (596664)
12-16-2010 11:43 AM
Reply to: Message 231 by Theodoric
12-16-2010 11:27 AM


Re: catholic church
Certainly. The term simply means universal and for the most part, describes any and all of the recognized Christian sects.
But of course, Dawn's assertion that that was what was being referenced is total nonsense.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 231 by Theodoric, posted 12-16-2010 11:27 AM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 240 by Theodoric, posted 12-16-2010 2:25 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 34136
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 239 of 566 (596685)
12-16-2010 1:43 PM
Reply to: Message 238 by arachnophilia
12-16-2010 1:30 PM


On Israel and Judah
It's important to understand that they are two separate nations and very often at war with one another and that even during the brief life of the United Kingdom it was far more like England and Scotland under James I and VI, two nations with a common monarch.
Edited by jar, : fix subtitle

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 238 by arachnophilia, posted 12-16-2010 1:30 PM arachnophilia has replied

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jar
Member
Posts: 34136
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 241 of 566 (596693)
12-16-2010 2:34 PM
Reply to: Message 240 by Theodoric
12-16-2010 2:25 PM


Re: catholic church
That may seem ridiculous to you and you may well know well what Dawn believe but if so, he is simply wrong. The definition I gave you is the meaning as used in the Nicene Creed and so applicable to any church that subscribes to that creed.
quote:
We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

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 Message 240 by Theodoric, posted 12-16-2010 2:25 PM Theodoric has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 243 by bluescat48, posted 12-16-2010 6:00 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 34136
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 244 of 566 (596743)
12-16-2010 6:08 PM
Reply to: Message 243 by bluescat48
12-16-2010 6:00 PM


Re: catholic church
Perhaps but it doesn't.
Looking at all the English language versions I can find, none show any commas.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 243 by bluescat48, posted 12-16-2010 6:00 PM bluescat48 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 246 by bluescat48, posted 12-16-2010 11:49 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 34136
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 254 of 566 (596836)
12-17-2010 9:49 AM
Reply to: Message 251 by Dawn Bertot
12-17-2010 3:37 AM


How to test writings.
Dawn Bertot writes:
But, now listen and pay close attention. It is ludicrous for one to assert, with certain assuance that he was not the fulfillment of those prophecies and believe at the sametime that the writers in the Old testament were unreliable, inaccurate and mythical
Here is why. If you dont even believe in the veracity and accuracy of the OTs writers and thier claims, (and that is what you are using for your source), to discredit something else, how in the world could one claim with absolute assurance he was not the messiah, while using what one believes to be faulty in the first place?
However, if from a purely logical standpoint put in logical form, those writers were inspired of God, then only God could explain from one testament to the next, what the meaning is or is not, correct? Atleast from a purely logical approach, when discussing the two testaments
Utter nonsense Dawn.
Whether the writers were inspired by God has absolutely nothing to do with whether what they wrote refers to Jesus.
The way you test the claimed prophecies is to look at what was actually written and then compare that to what was later written.
If you think that you can support the validity of some Old Testament prophecy of Jesus, then present the chapter and verse either in a thread devoted to that topic, or here.
If you wish I am happy to discuss your alleged prophecies just as I addressed the one where you claimed Isaiah 50:6 was about Jesus (see Message 226).

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 251 by Dawn Bertot, posted 12-17-2010 3:37 AM Dawn Bertot has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 265 by Dawn Bertot, posted 12-18-2010 10:31 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 34136
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 256 of 566 (596842)
12-17-2010 10:17 AM
Reply to: Message 246 by bluescat48
12-16-2010 11:49 PM


Re: catholic church
Not if you substitute universal (as is the meaning of catholic) in the phrase. It is saying that there is one church, a holy church and that it is a universal church.
Remember this creed was developed at the same time that the various "Sees" were being recognized and their privileges acknowledged.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 246 by bluescat48, posted 12-16-2010 11:49 PM bluescat48 has replied

Replies to this message:
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jar
Member
Posts: 34136
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 266 of 566 (597000)
12-18-2010 10:36 PM
Reply to: Message 264 by Dawn Bertot
12-18-2010 10:23 PM


Prophecy
Dawn Bertot writes:
Do you have any fulfilled predictions before the one you made above? That would also help us believe you
It has been suggested several times that if YOU think you have any supportable examples of fulfilled prophecy that you post them in the thread that is actually devoted to that subject. So far the three that you have mentioned were examined and there was NO evidence that any were ever fulfilled.
So since it is obvious that you have no fulfilled prophecy, to try to at least deal with the topic, how about addressing the issues that have been raised?
Why if I look and find that there is no unity of doctrine and theme in the Bible (which is pretty obvious to anyone that understands there is not even such a thing as "The Bible") is that not sufficient and supportable reason to throw away the god and religion you try to market?
If I find the Bible to be just a collection of writings on a variety of subjects addressed to people of different eras and cultures, why is that not sufficient?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 264 by Dawn Bertot, posted 12-18-2010 10:23 PM Dawn Bertot has not replied

  
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