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Author Topic:   Can a valid, supportable reason be offered for deconversion
subbie
Member (Idle past 1343 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 211 of 566 (596597)
12-15-2010 7:20 PM
Reply to: Message 209 by dwise1
12-15-2010 7:13 PM


Re: scriptural unity
Uff da!?! Where in the world did you learn that?

Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. -- Thomas Jefferson
We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat
It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate
...creationists have a great way to detect fraud and it doesn't take 8 or 40 years or even a scientific degree to spot the fraud--'if it disagrees with the bible then it is wrong'.... -- archaeologist

This message is a reply to:
 Message 209 by dwise1, posted 12-15-2010 7:13 PM dwise1 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 214 by dwise1, posted 12-15-2010 7:28 PM subbie has replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9284
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 212 of 566 (596598)
12-15-2010 7:24 PM
Reply to: Message 168 by Dawn Bertot
12-15-2010 3:01 AM


Which church?
This kingdom was of course the Church
Which church would that be?

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

This message is a reply to:
 Message 168 by Dawn Bertot, posted 12-15-2010 3:01 AM Dawn Bertot has not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9284
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 213 of 566 (596599)
12-15-2010 7:27 PM
Reply to: Message 179 by Dawn Bertot
12-15-2010 12:21 PM


Which church? Part 2
Do you have any evidence that the church is not the kingdom the prophets spoke of?
Which church?
Edited by Theodoric, : No reason given.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

This message is a reply to:
 Message 179 by Dawn Bertot, posted 12-15-2010 12:21 PM Dawn Bertot has not replied

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 5974
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 3.6


Message 214 of 566 (596600)
12-15-2010 7:28 PM
Reply to: Message 211 by subbie
12-15-2010 7:20 PM


Re: scriptural unity
In Nort' Dakota, from the MinnDaks there, don'cha know?
Stationed at Grand Forks AFB for 5 years around 1980.
Recently bought the book, How To Speak Minnesotan, by someone from Prairie Home Companion. Mentions several times how everybody makes sure to turn on the TV at 10PM to watch the news. Not for the news itself, but for the weather report. And that's exactly what everybody used to do when we were there.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 211 by subbie, posted 12-15-2010 7:20 PM subbie has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 217 by subbie, posted 12-15-2010 8:49 PM dwise1 has not replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 34065
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 215 of 566 (596602)
12-15-2010 7:32 PM
Reply to: Message 210 by dwise1
12-15-2010 7:20 PM


The Nazareth passage
That is not from anything related to Canonized books, but more likely from Jewish oral tradition.
But it is another great example of "False Prophecy".
The purpose of prophecy was a dope slap from God, not fortune telling, and definitely not intentionally doing something simply to build legitimacy.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 210 by dwise1, posted 12-15-2010 7:20 PM dwise1 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 293 by dwise1, posted 12-19-2010 8:39 PM jar has seen this message but not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 373 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 216 of 566 (596606)
12-15-2010 7:57 PM
Reply to: Message 179 by Dawn Bertot
12-15-2010 12:21 PM


Re: scriptural unity
Everyone make a mental note, DA disagrees that Jesus Christ is a Spiritual king over the Church (Spiritual Israel) and that is what the prophets predicted and the inspired writers in the NT make clear through inspiration and evidence
Why can't the prophecies be about Percy? He's the Internet King (moderator) of the EvC forums (Internet Israel).
So Now, all DA has to do is demonstrate why I should believe HIM, with no evidence to the contrary and why I should ignore that Christ fits and fulfills those promises, the way they were originally intended, in a spiritual fashion
There's no evidence that that's how they were intended, any more than there's evidence that they were meant to be about Percy.
In particular, it should be pointed out that none of the Jews understood them in that way. When they read about a great king ruling over Israel, they did not understand it as meaning that someone who was not a king would not rule over Israel but would instead become the cult figure of a new religion that would persecute the crap out of them for the next coupla thousand years. Otherwise they'd probably have looked forward to the advent of this "messiah" chappie a whole lot less.
Do you have any evidence that the church is not the kingdom the prophets spoke of?
Yes, because it's a church and not the Kingdom of Israel.
You can make any prophecy fit anything if you change the meanings of the words entirely. Here, I've got a prediction for you. In the coming week you'll win the lottery.
Now get back to me in a week and I'll explain to you what I actually meant by that. Here's a hint --- by "win" I don't mean win, and by "the lottery" I don't mean the lottery.
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 179 by Dawn Bertot, posted 12-15-2010 12:21 PM Dawn Bertot has not replied

  
subbie
Member (Idle past 1343 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 217 of 566 (596611)
12-15-2010 8:49 PM
Reply to: Message 214 by dwise1
12-15-2010 7:28 PM


Re: scriptural unity
Ah yes, Howard Mohr's classic; funny as hell and every word of it gospel truth. I discovered that one summer while I was living in St. Louis; made me terribly homesick.

Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. -- Thomas Jefferson
We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat
It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate
...creationists have a great way to detect fraud and it doesn't take 8 or 40 years or even a scientific degree to spot the fraud--'if it disagrees with the bible then it is wrong'.... -- archaeologist

This message is a reply to:
 Message 214 by dwise1, posted 12-15-2010 7:28 PM dwise1 has not replied

  
Dawn Bertot
Member (Idle past 172 days)
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


Message 218 of 566 (596633)
12-16-2010 2:24 AM
Reply to: Message 204 by arachnophilia
12-15-2010 6:19 PM


Re: scriptural unity
that's funny. see, one of the ways i know some authors of the NT are not inspired is because their words concerning yahweh are untrue (deuteronomy 13). the OT encourages skepticism of claimed inspiration, and for a good reason. otherwise, we might be tempted to believe everyone who comes along and claims to speak for yahweh. and since they speak for yahweh, we know they're telling the truth about speaking for yahweh.
Well that is not the point i was making. My point was, do you have information better than the inspired Apostles and Nt writers that cite passages of the OT to relay them as a fulfillment of said prophecies?
Lets see you evidence that should suplant thier conclusions
secondly, if I am not mistaken, you dont even believe the writers of the OT were inspired, do you?
so you keep repeating, yes. unfortunately, if you're going to repeatedly make claims you want us to debunk, and refuse to take said claims to the thread specifically written for them, there's nothing we can do. you're just going to look like an insolent child, and too scared to play with the big kids.
No, you've simply been presented with an argument, for which you will not attempt an answer.
Here it is again. Please explain why I should not accept the NT writers conclusions and estimations about the fulfillment of the prophecies they cite as relating to and the fulfillment of said prophecies
as of yet I been presented with no evidence as to why they are unreliable
As such, I have a simple choice. I can believe them or I can believe you.
Since they claim to be eyewitnesses to those events and the rest of the NT provides other evidences to that fact, why in the world would I believe you
You have made the claim that the NT writers are in error. Now all you need do is tell me why and How
Can you do this?
because you've read the original text they are referencing. oh, wait, no you haven't. but seriously, take it to the prophecy thread.
Perhaps you could elaborate on this aspect as you keep refering to it
Let me ask you a question Arch. were the writers of the OT inspired by God when they spoke thier prophecies, Yes or NO?
Dawn Bertot
PS Ive told you and Jar you are free to bring any argument over fromthat thread as long as we dont get to far off topic. bring your big boy arguments here if you wish
Dawn Bertot

This message is a reply to:
 Message 204 by arachnophilia, posted 12-15-2010 6:19 PM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 225 by Phat, posted 12-16-2010 10:46 AM Dawn Bertot has not replied
 Message 233 by arachnophilia, posted 12-16-2010 1:04 PM Dawn Bertot has replied
 Message 235 by Taq, posted 12-16-2010 1:12 PM Dawn Bertot has replied

  
Dawn Bertot
Member (Idle past 172 days)
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


Message 219 of 566 (596635)
12-16-2010 2:38 AM
Reply to: Message 205 by arachnophilia
12-15-2010 6:26 PM


Re: scriptural unity
fun fact: none of the gospels are written in first person. the only books that use first person are the epistles.
fun fact: they claim inspiration from the Holy Spirit
Correct and they are written by inspiration of the Holy Ghost, unless you can demonstrate why that is not possible
considering lifespans, yes there is.
first the dates you cite are from liberal scholars (apologists). secondly, the dates do not remove them from having been eyewitnesses
yes, i did. pretty much anything evangelical is misguided. and apologetics is what he did. that's the technical and correct term.
There are none so blind as those that will not see. its humorous to watch someone claim that someone else is using an apologetic approach and not see it in themselves.
Im still waiting for clarificationon on what it is that you have textually and what we are missing
it has nothing to do with whether or not you said. it just happens to be wrong.
More assertions, with no argument
you might want to actually look at that evidence. but we can discuss that sort of thing once we established that you can even read and understand the bible.
repeating that I dont understand this or that is not the same as providing an argument and evidence to that affect
can you demonstrate or provide evidence as to why I should not trust the NT writers, while at the same time I should believe the OT writers and thier conclusion
Oh thats right, You and Jar dont believe either were inspired to begin with, correct?
Isnt it amussing that I am suppose to accept your interpretations of OT passages, without hesitation and the conclusions you draw from those prophecies as valid.
But I am suppose to reject any NT fulfillment of said prophecies, because you have decided that one is valid and one is not
Yet you wont explain how youve decided the truthfulness of one and not the other
Now, theres a fun fact for ya. explain how that works after you explain whether the OT is inspired or not
Dawn Bertot
Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 205 by arachnophilia, posted 12-15-2010 6:26 PM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 230 by Theodoric, posted 12-16-2010 11:25 AM Dawn Bertot has not replied
 Message 234 by arachnophilia, posted 12-16-2010 1:06 PM Dawn Bertot has replied

  
Dawn Bertot
Member (Idle past 172 days)
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


Message 220 of 566 (596636)
12-16-2010 3:06 AM
Reply to: Message 206 by arachnophilia
12-15-2010 6:41 PM


what i posted was not an argument, but a summary of my past experiences. mostly on this very board, i might add. about 6 years ago, i gave up arguing against creationism with science, and instead, would reply to every post with information from the bible.
And how did this work for you?
your own posts have frequently demonstrated your willingness to betray the intent and goals of scripture, in defense of your predetermined opinion on the matter. for instance, you are willing to do away with the finer points of much of the major prophets for the sake of claiming that the entire bible is about jesus. what are you doing is raping the bible of its humanity, and beauty.
As I have contiually demonstrated and pointed out, they are not MY opinions, they are the NT writers inspired opinions. It may be possible that like the Jews of old, you were looking for a physical king, when a spiritual one was underconsideration by God
You keep claiming I am missing something textually and now youve called it the finer points of the Prophets. Perhaps you could explain what it is that I am missing
yes. i do.
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest thou also be like unto him.
I specifically asked you not to give me another, "Bird in the hand" explanation and you did it anyway
Can you provide a reason or argument as to why I should not accept the NT inspired conclusions? Ill be waithing
this is based on my experience in an actual bible study class. the professor asked everyone to check their beliefs at the door, and just examine the text for what it was. certain notions, some big and some very small, would arise from time to time, and we'd go and look at the text -- and the text would generally not support those notions. the majority of the class was surprised that the thing they had heard about bible were not actually in the bible.
Were the people in this class inspired writers, did they have the inspired gift of decernment (1 Cor 12)?
err, no. we have some NT authors who say that the evidence leans in their favour. but the evidence is also there to plainly check -- and we must check those assertions against the scriptures as well. for instance, if a new testament author claims that jesus is the messiah because he rode into jerusalem on a donkey, we can check that against zechariah 9, and see that the prophecy also states things like the messiah bringing world peace, ruling the world, etc. donkeys aren't especially important -- several thousand people probably rode into jerusalem on donkeys on the very same day as christ.
Of course he did bring peace to the entire world and rules at its king, as it is stated "all authority has been given him in heaven and earth"
Like the Jews of old , you are looking for what God never intended
Its interesting isnt it? you denounce the inspiration of the NT writes, using nothing more than your own opinion.
So Iam forced to a conclusion, I can believe this guy Arch, which can give no valid reason for his conlcusion, about what is intended in Zech, just his opinion, not to mention, Arch being uninspired
Or I can believe a person that said he was an eyewitness and claims inspiration
Why should I believe you more than him? Please explain
Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.
Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 206 by arachnophilia, posted 12-15-2010 6:41 PM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 236 by arachnophilia, posted 12-16-2010 1:14 PM Dawn Bertot has not replied

  
Dawn Bertot
Member (Idle past 172 days)
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


Message 221 of 566 (596639)
12-16-2010 3:23 AM
Reply to: Message 207 by arachnophilia
12-15-2010 6:47 PM


Re: scriptural unity
it doesn't say "spiritual", does it? adding words kind of changes things. especially considering that the context of all the messianic bits generally indicates a physical kingdom. you know, the same way that the book of revelation does.
Since you did not provide a passage, I cannot respond to it. Secondly, if inspiration in the OT was behind the prophecies, then only inspiration could explain Gods interpretations of those prophecies, correct?
There is no reason to assume the writers in the OT were inspired and the ones in the Nt were not, unless you can provide a reason
So only God could explain what he actually meant. This he did by his Son.. Many times he stated, that "the law and the Prophets testify of me"
"If you knew and understood Moses, you would understand who and what Iam, because Moses testified of me"
I choose to believe Isa and Christ, unless you can provide a reason as to why I should not
Dawn Bertot
Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.
Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 207 by arachnophilia, posted 12-15-2010 6:47 PM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 223 by Panda, posted 12-16-2010 5:14 AM Dawn Bertot has not replied
 Message 237 by arachnophilia, posted 12-16-2010 1:20 PM Dawn Bertot has not replied

  
Dawn Bertot
Member (Idle past 172 days)
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


Message 222 of 566 (596640)
12-16-2010 3:32 AM
Reply to: Message 210 by dwise1
12-15-2010 7:20 PM


Re: scriptural unity
Oh, you mean like this one?
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(KJV) Matthew 2:23
And he came and dwelt in a city called Nazareth: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophets, He shall be called a Nazarene.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
And where in the Old Testament is that prophesy located?
Wow, did you happen to see the word "spoken", in the passage. Not all things ever spoken by the prophets made it into a book. That does not mean that they did not say it out loud, or that it was not recieved by human ears.
This also a good indication of inspiration, if indeed the writer never actually heard the prophet state it, it was given to him by inspiration
here it is in reverse
amoung other indignities heaped upon my Lord, the prophets says that even the hairs of his beard would be plucked out
Isa 50:6 I offered my back to those who beat me,
my cheeks to those who pulled out my beard;
I did not hide my face
from mocking and spitting.
No NT writers references this item (the beard)specifically, but I know that it happened behind those closed doors, because this is what inspiration said would happen and inspiration gives a general discription of it Matt 26
Only another inspired writer could make it known that was a reference to Christ
Dawn Bertot
Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.
Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.
Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 210 by dwise1, posted 12-15-2010 7:20 PM dwise1 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 226 by jar, posted 12-16-2010 10:53 AM Dawn Bertot has not replied
 Message 227 by dwise1, posted 12-16-2010 10:57 AM Dawn Bertot has not replied

  
Panda
Member (Idle past 3801 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 223 of 566 (596641)
12-16-2010 5:14 AM
Reply to: Message 221 by Dawn Bertot
12-16-2010 3:23 AM


Re: scriptural unity
arachnophilia writes:
Dawn Bertot writes:
I noticed you have 300 and something posts to my 2200, do you think your tactics will work? Your a sad excuse at attempts to intimidate.
please note my post count [8271], to the left.
Why have you not conceded all your arguements to arachnophilia?
He has posted over 3 times as many posts as you: he is over 3 times 'more correct' than you.
Or is your original post just stupid.
Or is it just another case of you not knowing what the hell you are writing.
Why should we think your claims of scholarship are anything other than a bare-faced lies?
And why do you keep using the word 'intimidate' when clearly you don't know what it means?
The cognitive dissonance causing you to repeatedly refuse to address your appallingly bad English must be very intense.
(I accept that the previous sentence is probably 'too advanced' for you.)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 221 by Dawn Bertot, posted 12-16-2010 3:23 AM Dawn Bertot has not replied

  
Larni
Member
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 224 of 566 (596651)
12-16-2010 10:41 AM


Sorry to butt in, but.....
Has anyone noticed that what Dawn is effectively doing is asking for a reason not to believe in his god?
And that the only way to do that would be to prove to him that his god does not exist?
By that I mean Dawn will never be satisfied with any answer given.
It amounts to a whole load of trying to prove a negative.

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18390
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 225 of 566 (596652)
12-16-2010 10:46 AM
Reply to: Message 218 by Dawn Bertot
12-16-2010 2:24 AM


Re: scriptural unity
Dawn Bertot writes:
Please explain why I should not accept the NT writers conclusions and estimations about the fulfillment of the prophecies they cite as relating to and the fulfillment of said prophecies
as of yet I been presented with no evidence as to why they are unreliable
Do you have evidence as to why they are reliable?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 218 by Dawn Bertot, posted 12-16-2010 2:24 AM Dawn Bertot has not replied

  
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