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Author Topic:   Can a valid, supportable reason be offered for deconversion
jar
Member
Posts: 34136
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 226 of 566 (596653)
12-16-2010 10:53 AM
Reply to: Message 222 by Dawn Bertot
12-16-2010 3:32 AM


More scriptural misrepresentation.
And, of course, Isaiah 50 is NOT talking about Jesus but is just another example of taking things out of context.
Here is the passage in context.
quote:
Israel’s Sin and the Servant’s Obedience
1 This is what the LORD says:
Where is your mother’s certificate of divorce
with which I sent her away?
Or to which of my creditors
did I sell you?
Because of your sins you were sold;
because of your transgressions your mother was sent away.
2 When I came, why was there no one?
When I called, why was there no one to answer?
Was my arm too short to deliver you?
Do I lack the strength to rescue you?
By a mere rebuke I dry up the sea,
I turn rivers into a desert;
their fish rot for lack of water
and die of thirst.
3 I clothe the heavens with darkness
and make sackcloth its covering.
4 The Sovereign LORD has given me a well-instructed tongue,
to know the word that sustains the weary.
He wakens me morning by morning,
wakens my ear to listen like one being instructed.
5 The Sovereign LORD has opened my ears;
I have not been rebellious,
I have not turned away.
6 I offered my back to those who beat me,
my cheeks to those who pulled out my beard;
I did not hide my face
from mocking and spitting.
7 Because the Sovereign LORD helps me,
I will not be disgraced.
Therefore have I set my face like flint,
and I know I will not be put to shame.
8 He who vindicates me is near.
Who then will bring charges against me?
Let us face each other!
Who is my accuser?
Let him confront me!
9 It is the Sovereign LORD who helps me.
Who will condemn me?
They will all wear out like a garment;
the moths will eat them up.
10 Who among you fears the LORD
and obeys the word of his servant?
Let the one who walks in the dark,
who has no light,
trust in the name of the LORD
and rely on their God.
11 But now, all you who light fires
and provide yourselves with flaming torches,
go, walk in the light of your fires
and of the torches you have set ablaze.
This is what you shall receive from my hand:
You will lie down in torment.
As in other such examples of quote mined misrepresentation, this passage from Isaiah is NOT talking about Jesus but rather the then current state of Israel and the fact that God allowed Israel to be conquered.
Take your allegations and assertions over to the thread where they might actually be on topic, here they simply show that you really don't have a clue what is in the Bible or even what prophecy is about.
But if it was prophecy about Jesus, then the evidence is that it is a failed prophecy since there is no evidence that such an event even happened.
Edited by jar, : left the t offn event

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 222 by Dawn Bertot, posted 12-16-2010 3:32 AM Dawn Bertot has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 238 by arachnophilia, posted 12-16-2010 1:30 PM jar has replied

  
dwise1
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Posts: 5990
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 227 of 566 (596654)
12-16-2010 10:57 AM
Reply to: Message 222 by Dawn Bertot
12-16-2010 3:32 AM


Re: scriptural unity
This also a good indication of inspiration, if indeed the writer never actually heard the prophet state it, it was given to him by inspiration
IOW, making shit up. SOP for your religion.
Dan Barker, former fundamentalist preacher, noticed the same thing. Preachers who didn't know what they were talking about would get up before a congregation and make shit up and the congregation would just eat it all up because "the Spirit was talking through him."
Which would include what the Gospel writers did. Knowing some Scripture (meaning OT), they picked out what could serve as prophesies and then make up the fulfillment of those prophesies. And you eat it all up because "the Spirit was talking through them."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 222 by Dawn Bertot, posted 12-16-2010 3:32 AM Dawn Bertot has not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9370
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 228 of 566 (596656)
12-16-2010 11:22 AM
Reply to: Message 179 by Dawn Bertot
12-15-2010 12:21 PM


Are you ignoring me Dawn?
Which church?

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

This message is a reply to:
 Message 179 by Dawn Bertot, posted 12-15-2010 12:21 PM Dawn Bertot has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 229 by jar, posted 12-16-2010 11:24 AM Theodoric has replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 34136
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 229 of 566 (596659)
12-16-2010 11:24 AM
Reply to: Message 228 by Theodoric
12-16-2010 11:22 AM


Re: Are you ignoring me Dawn?
It would be the catholic (as in universal) church.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 228 by Theodoric, posted 12-16-2010 11:22 AM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 231 by Theodoric, posted 12-16-2010 11:27 AM jar has replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9370
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 230 of 566 (596660)
12-16-2010 11:25 AM
Reply to: Message 219 by Dawn Bertot
12-16-2010 2:38 AM


Re: scriptural unity
they claim inspiration from the Holy Spirit
Please state the line that claims this. Also, what about other religious tracts that claim this and are not in the Canon? Why are the ones in your bible true and others not?
Do you understand the process that resulted in your bible?

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

This message is a reply to:
 Message 219 by Dawn Bertot, posted 12-16-2010 2:38 AM Dawn Bertot has not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9370
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 231 of 566 (596661)
12-16-2010 11:27 AM
Reply to: Message 229 by jar
12-16-2010 11:24 AM


catholic church
So does this catholic(universal) church exist?

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

This message is a reply to:
 Message 229 by jar, posted 12-16-2010 11:24 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 232 by jar, posted 12-16-2010 11:43 AM Theodoric has replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 34136
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 232 of 566 (596664)
12-16-2010 11:43 AM
Reply to: Message 231 by Theodoric
12-16-2010 11:27 AM


Re: catholic church
Certainly. The term simply means universal and for the most part, describes any and all of the recognized Christian sects.
But of course, Dawn's assertion that that was what was being referenced is total nonsense.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 231 by Theodoric, posted 12-16-2010 11:27 AM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 240 by Theodoric, posted 12-16-2010 2:25 PM jar has replied

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1460 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 233 of 566 (596671)
12-16-2010 1:04 PM
Reply to: Message 218 by Dawn Bertot
12-16-2010 2:24 AM


Re: scriptural unity
Dawn Bertot writes:
Well that is not the point i was making. My point was, do you have information better than the inspired Apostles and Nt writers that cite passages of the OT to relay them as a fulfillment of said prophecies?
yes. that information can be found in the old testament, generally in the verse surrounding the prophecy the NT authors are misrepresenting.
secondly, if I am not mistaken, you dont even believe the writers of the OT were inspired, do you?
my beliefs are not the topic of debate. the question is why should (you or) anyone "deconvert". the fact that the NT claims of "fulfilled prophecy" do not match the actual OT prophecies is a fairly good reason.
No, you've simply been presented with an argument, for which you will not attempt an answer.
Here it is again. Please explain why I should not accept the NT writers conclusions and estimations about the fulfillment of the prophecies they cite as relating to and the fulfillment of said prophecies
no. really. there's a whole thread devoted to this. there have been whole threads in the past. we once spent over 300 posts discussing one particular prophecy alone. my arguments and explanations can be found in the appropriate thread. in detail. you simply refuse to go look.
As such, I have a simple choice. I can believe them or I can believe you.
it's not about believing me. it's about understanding the old testament.

אָרַח

This message is a reply to:
 Message 218 by Dawn Bertot, posted 12-16-2010 2:24 AM Dawn Bertot has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 248 by Dawn Bertot, posted 12-17-2010 2:53 AM arachnophilia has replied

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1460 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 234 of 566 (596672)
12-16-2010 1:06 PM
Reply to: Message 219 by Dawn Bertot
12-16-2010 2:38 AM


Re: scriptural unity
Dawn Bertot writes:
fun fact: none of the gospels are written in first person. the only books that use first person are the epistles.
fun fact: they claim inspiration from the Holy Spirit
fun fact: i can do that too. and so can you. and so can anyone. which is why the torah provides a way to determine inspiration.
first the dates you cite are from liberal scholars (apologists).
i think you had better look up what "apologist" means. and "liberal".

אָרַח

This message is a reply to:
 Message 219 by Dawn Bertot, posted 12-16-2010 2:38 AM Dawn Bertot has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 250 by Dawn Bertot, posted 12-17-2010 3:06 AM arachnophilia has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10197
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 235 of 566 (596673)
12-16-2010 1:12 PM
Reply to: Message 218 by Dawn Bertot
12-16-2010 2:24 AM


Re: scriptural unity
Please explain why I should not accept the NT writers conclusions and estimations about the fulfillment of the prophecies they cite as relating to and the fulfillment of said prophecies
The process of deconversion begins when you ask why you should accept them to begin with.
How did you determine that the NT authors were inspired? Just because they say so? If it is that simple:
Taq is inspired by the Holy Ghost because Taq says so.
There, I am now an inspired author. With that said, Jesus was not the Messiah.
Your deconversion can now commence.
Edited by Taq, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 218 by Dawn Bertot, posted 12-16-2010 2:24 AM Dawn Bertot has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 251 by Dawn Bertot, posted 12-17-2010 3:37 AM Taq has replied

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1460 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 236 of 566 (596674)
12-16-2010 1:14 PM
Reply to: Message 220 by Dawn Bertot
12-16-2010 3:06 AM


Dawn Bertot writes:
what i posted was not an argument, but a summary of my past experiences. mostly on this very board, i might add. about 6 years ago, i gave up arguing against creationism with science, and instead, would reply to every post with information from the bible.
And how did this work for you?
very well, actually.
As I have contiually demonstrated and pointed out, they are not MY opinions, they are the NT writers inspired opinions. It may be possible that like the Jews of old, you were looking for a physical king, when a spiritual one was underconsideration by God
You keep claiming I am missing something textually and now youve called it the finer points of the Prophets. Perhaps you could explain what it is that I am missing
sure. there is a whole thread devoted to that subject right now.
quote:
Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest thou also be like unto him.
I specifically asked you not to give me another, "Bird in the hand" explanation and you did it anyway
perhaps you would prefer?
quote:
Answer a fool according to his folly, lest he be wise in his own conceit.
"bird in the hand explanation" is not the word you're looking for, here. that word would be "proverb".
Were the people in this class inspired writers, did they have the inspired gift of decernment (1 Cor 12)?
no, but they could read. something you evidently cannot do. and if we would have to be inspired by the holy spirit to even read the bible and understand its message, well -- what's the point of the bible, exactly?
Of course he did bring peace to the entire world and rules at its king, as it is stated "all authority has been given him in heaven and earth"
iraq and afghanistan disagree with you. as does israel. remember israel?
Like the Jews of old , you are looking for what God never intended
so you think the authors of the OT were not inspired, when they described the earthly rule of the messiah?
So Iam forced to a conclusion, I can believe this guy Arch, which can give no valid reason for his conlcusion, about what is intended in Zech, just his opinion, not to mention, Arch being uninspired
don't believe me. believe zechariah. his words are plainly there for you to see on paper. why you can't comprehend them in plain, literal english i do not know.

אָרַח

This message is a reply to:
 Message 220 by Dawn Bertot, posted 12-16-2010 3:06 AM Dawn Bertot has not replied

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1460 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 237 of 566 (596676)
12-16-2010 1:20 PM
Reply to: Message 221 by Dawn Bertot
12-16-2010 3:23 AM


Re: scriptural unity
Dawn Bertot writes:
Since you did not provide a passage, I cannot respond to it.
there are several passages in the appropriate thread. you may respond there.
Secondly, if inspiration in the OT was behind the prophecies, then only inspiration could explain Gods interpretations of those prophecies, correct?
incorrect. prophecy was meant as a message to the common folk, given by god through the mouths of the prophets. if your position were correct, everyone would have needed "inspiration" to understand the prophet -- and thus there would be no need for a prophet.
There is no reason to assume the writers in the OT were inspired and the ones in the Nt were not, unless you can provide a reason
sure. several have been provided in the prophecy thread.
So only God could explain what he actually meant. This he did by his Son.. Many times he stated, that "the law and the Prophets testify of me"
and any person can claim such a thing. the proof is in the pudding.

אָרַח

This message is a reply to:
 Message 221 by Dawn Bertot, posted 12-16-2010 3:23 AM Dawn Bertot has not replied

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1460 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 238 of 566 (596679)
12-16-2010 1:30 PM
Reply to: Message 226 by jar
12-16-2010 10:53 AM


Re: More scriptural misrepresentation.
jar writes:
As in other such examples of quote mined misrepresentation, this passage from Isaiah is NOT talking about Jesus but rather the then current state of Israel and the fact that God allowed Israel to be conquered.
since dawn likely doesn't know this particular bit of history, it's worth spelling out here.
after solomon died, there was a dispute over the unified kingdom of israel. his son rehoboam ruled the southern kingdom of judah from jerusalem, and his other son jeroboam ruled the northern kingdom of israel. pretty much everything in the bible was written in judah. when the prophets refer to "israel" they are frequently refering to the northern kingdom, which was conquered by assyria around the time of the prophets. this is often in contrast to judah, as here in isaiah 50 (israel =bad, judah = good).
sometimes they also refer to israel, meaning all 12 tribes, or the sons jacob -- all the hebrew peoples. but this is not one of those times.
i find that people of the fundamentalist persuasion -- and those that have not read the books of kings -- frequently conflate israel and judah in prophecy, because they simply do not understand the difference. this difference would have been huge to the authors at the time, as israel was occasionally waging brutal war against them, and they were generally viewed as an evil and idolatrous nation.

אָרַח

This message is a reply to:
 Message 226 by jar, posted 12-16-2010 10:53 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 239 by jar, posted 12-16-2010 1:43 PM arachnophilia has replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 34136
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 239 of 566 (596685)
12-16-2010 1:43 PM
Reply to: Message 238 by arachnophilia
12-16-2010 1:30 PM


On Israel and Judah
It's important to understand that they are two separate nations and very often at war with one another and that even during the brief life of the United Kingdom it was far more like England and Scotland under James I and VI, two nations with a common monarch.
Edited by jar, : fix subtitle

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 238 by arachnophilia, posted 12-16-2010 1:30 PM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
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Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9370
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 240 of 566 (596692)
12-16-2010 2:25 PM
Reply to: Message 232 by jar
12-16-2010 11:43 AM


Re: catholic church
Certainly. The term simply means universal and for the most part, describes any and all of the recognized Christian sects.
This seems like a ridiculous statement, not quite as ridiculous as Dawns but still it seems rather ridiculous.
Just because a sect, any sect, makes some sort of whatever vague reference to Jesus Christ, it is part of some universal church? Catholic or universal signifies some sort of commonality. I do not see how the term catholic can be used to encompass all of the christian sects.
I think Dawn believes that "church" is the sect he follows and that other christian sects that disagree with his sect are not part of the "church". That is what I am trying to find out from Dawn.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

This message is a reply to:
 Message 232 by jar, posted 12-16-2010 11:43 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 241 by jar, posted 12-16-2010 2:34 PM Theodoric has not replied

  
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