Deconversion experiences

I think that many of the deconversion experiences happen because people find the Bible contradictory and inaccurate. I suggest that you are trying to prove your case by proving the accuracy of the Bible which in my view is misguided.The Christian faith does not depend on the scientific and historical accuracy of the whole Bible.Paul has it correct when he writes in his first letter to the Corinthians that "if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is in vain and your faith also is in vain".The first Christian churches were formed solely because the early disciples believed that the bodily resurrection of Jesus was an historical event. If they were wrong then all of Christianity is a sham and it becomes either a social movement or a Jewish sect.If Jesus Christ was raised from the dead then does it really matter if the flood was historical or metaphorical? The Bible is not our God.The Christian faith started with the resurrection and is sustained by it. If it isn’t true then my life would be much better spent in other pursuits. I believe that N T Wright makes a very convincing argument although obviously there might be one or two on this forum that would disagree. I think that many of us in the west have gotten too hung up on trying to make the Bible into something that God never intended and have wound up not seeing the forest for the trees. JMHO

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Everybody is entitled to my opinion.

C S Lewis said this in his book called Miracles.

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Just as, on the factual side, a long preparation culminates in God’s becoming incarnate as Man, so, on the documentary side, the truth first appears in mythical form and then by a long process of condensing or focusing finally becomes incarnate as History. This involves the belief that Myth is ... a real though unfocused gleam of divine truth falling on human imagination. The Hebrews, like other peoples, had mythology: but as they were the chosen people so their mythology was the chosen mythology — the mythology chosen by God to be the vehicle of the earliest sacred truths, the first step in that process which ends in the New Testament where truth has become completely historical.

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I agree that the Bible is a basic source of my theology but frankly so is all creation, and so is my fallible reason. Christianity makes sense of this world in ways that nothing else does. That is my view which I've expressed before in other threads so I don't want to go through another round of trying to defend it.I recently participated in a thread where I expressed many of my views on how God relates to His creation. GDR in thread, "Is Evolution the Work of Satan?"I go back to my earlier point that it is the bodily resurrection of Jesus that is central and essential to the Christian faith. If the resurrection was an actual historic event then the Bible can be read in light of that. If I were ever to come to the conclusion that I was wrong in my belief about the resurrection then I would view the Bible quite differently.On the topic of original sin by the way I see it this way. Some where along the line the love of self came to be entrenched in all of us. (Looking out for number one.) Christianity teaches that we are to minimize that and maximize our love for all of our creation.Edited by GDR, : No reason given.

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Everybody is entitled to my opinion.

But that isn't what is meant by resurrection. What you are talking about is resuscitation.

I believe that to be the nub of the problem. I know this sounds prideful, but it is my view that there is a great deal of bad theology around and that is very often what gets rejected. Case in point is the post by dwise1 above. If it was necessary for me to believe everything in the OT literally I wouldn't be a Christian either. I believe that there is a great deal to be gleaned from the OT but in my view it was never intended to be read like a text book.

I suppose that if they were making it all up then they would have had all their ducks in a row and made sure that everything was spot on. They didn't which is a pretty good indication that they just passed on things as they saw them I make my decisions on what I believe pretty much the same as everyone else, and one of the things that I believe is that God is much more concerned about not so much what I do but whether I humbly love kindness and do justice. If you read the Bible it's pretty clear that it is what makes us right with God and not our theology.You are actually making my point for me that what is so often rejected is a misrepresentation of the scriptures.

I know I keep beating the same drum but this is another example of someone rejecting a Christianity that isn't even scriptural. You don't go to hell because you get your theology wrong. I have no doubt that everyone that has ever existed has had their theology screwed up one way or another which means damnation for all of us.The Bible is clear that what makes us righteous with God is that we have humble loving hearts. I imagine some on this forum will say that we are justified by faith. I would agree, but the question is faith in what. They would probably say faith in Jesus. I would again agree; but what does that mean?For the sake of argument let's say I was an American democrat and that I believe in Obama. That doesn't mean that I believe he exists; it doesn't mean I believe that he is President; it does mean though that I believe in what he stands for.Yes I put my faith in Christ. Yes I believe He was Messiah and God incarnate but anyone can believe that and ignore His message of love, truth, forgiveness, justice, mercy etc. Read Matthew 25 and the sheep and goats metaphor. It is those that with humble hearts fed the hungry, clothed the naked, visited the prisons etc that were right with God.Here is a quote from James Chap 2.

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14 What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? 15 Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. 16 If one of you says to them, Go in peace; keep warm and well fed, but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? 17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.

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18 But someone will say, You have faith; I have deeds.

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Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds. 19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe thatand shudder.

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I would go so far to suggest that just possibly you are closer to God now than you were before your so called deconversion. (I have no real way of knowing that but you obviously have rejected the legalism that you have encountered and maybe through that you have taken on a more authentic love of the goodness of God.)I see the Bible as a gift from God but it isn’t God. WE have been given the gift of reason and we are to use that reason to interpret what the Bible has to tell us.

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Everybody is entitled to my opinion.

Here is a quote from "The Great Divorce" by C S Lewis.

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"There are only two kinds of people in the end: those who say to God, "Thy will be done," and those to whom God says, in the end, "Thy will be done." All that are in Hell, choose it. Without that self-choice there could be no Hell. No soul that seriously and constantly desires joy will ever miss it. Those who seek find. Those who knock it is opened. "

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We have free will. We can choose between self serving love or love for all of God's creation.This is from Matthew 7

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21 Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven

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Yes, I believe that someone who truly embraces Christ and embraces the Christian faith will have their heart changed so that they become right with God, but that does not mean that everyone who doesn’t accept that theology is doomed to eternal damnation. On the other hand becoming a Christian, as we can see from the previous quote doesn't necessarily make you right with God either.Incidentally, I don't see "Kingdom of Heaven" in the previous quote as referring to some place where we go when we die. It is the kingdom without borders that Christ established on Earth made up of those charged with spreading the gospel message of love, justice, mercy, truth, forgiveness etc to the world.

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What I'm stating is that since I can find no reason to believe, or to have faith, in a supernatural entity which can (by definition) be neither felt nor seen with any measure of surety, I choose to not believe in said entity. This is where faith comes in, yes?

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Yes there is where faith comes in, but we all have faith in something even if it's only in our own wisdom. There is a discussion on this thread about design. Here is something to consider:
1/ There is something instead of nothing.
2/ The universe evolved in such a way that Earth came to be in a very finely tuned state so that life could exist.
3/ Basic atoms and molecules came together to form incredibly complicated cells.
4/ These cells had to come together in such a way that not only did plant life evolve but so did animal life.
5/ One of these animals evolved into a creature that exceeded the others in intelligence but was also able to make moral decisions.I accept that those things happened, but we have to ask ourselves does it make more sense that all that came about by random chance, or was there an intelligence behind all of it.There is no surety, so yes it is a matter of faith which answer we choose. I do believe in a literal resurrection and in the miracles, but I don't agree that that is what makes me right with Christ and I don't agree that your rejection of them means that you are destined for hell. However, I will say this, there may well be more atheists than Christians that will be part of God's new creation, but it will be Jesus that got them there. If there is a creative intelligence behind the existence of our world, then obviously it took a miracle to get creation rolling. (We can accept the deistic view that after the original act of creation the creator took an extended holiday and forgot about us.) However, if the first miracle of creation happened then it seems to me that other miracles as the Earth evolved are not only possible but likely.I think that the person who has done the most research and has written most extensively on the historical evidence for the resurrection is N T Wright. Here is a very brief synopsis of his views. N T Wright's case for resurrectionIf you are interested there is a lot more material on both sides of the issue available. Not really. I'm suggesting that possibly in getting rid of the legalism that you had embraced, that you actually are better able to humbly love kindness and do justice, (Micah 6:8) than when you saw it as duty and necessary to avoid hell.If God does exist then I would guess it would pretty hard for you to get rid of him. Cheers

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Everybody is entitled to my opinion.

Sometimes it seems that the atheists/agnostics are the greatest literalists. At the time that was written child sacrifices were a pretty common way of appeasing the gods. I see that story as God revealing that child sacrifice, or any human sacrifice for that matter, was not what he wanted. When the Bible says that Abraham's faith made him righteous it doesn't single out that one event which may very well be metaphorical anyway. The passage in Romans 4 only speaks of Abraham's faith in a general sense. I,ve given several references and I contend that the references I gave are in context. Not right. I guess to put it simply I would say that God is concerned, not with what we do, not with our theology but with the condition of our heart. If we perform altruistic acts because we figure that God will then owe us a spot on the right side of the equation then we miss the point. That is an entirely different scenario than if we perform altruistic acts just simply as an act of unconditional love.

I don't think I can make myself feel unconditional love, but I believe I am capable of it. Everyone is capable of it but not everyone chooses it. Unfortunately, in my case, most of the time it's all about me.

I have given a number of Biblical references in this thread that show that those aren't the choices. I'm a Christian and I don't agree with either option and frankly even the burning in hell bit is metaphorical. Hell is really just an eternity separated from God and that is the choice of the individual.Choose which version of Christianity you want to reject. Will it be Jerry Falwell or C S Lewis? They really are quite different.

All I can say is to think through what it is that you are rejecting. Just remember that the Bible is a gift from God but it isn't God.One way of looking at it is this. There are still terrible things happening in the world, but look back to the time of Christ and how the world was then. Look at the world of the ancient Romans and how they brutulized people and their lack of regard for human life. This was life within the predominate culture in the world at that time.Since the time that Christ came with His message of love, peace, mercy and forgiveness and charged his followers with taking that message to the world I suggest that the world has become a better place.Would this have happened anyway? Maybe or maybe not. You will have to make up your mind about that, but in the meantime, even if you remain an atheist/agnostic, I believe that you are still called to humbly love kindness and serve justice and you will be still serving God whether you recognize it or not.Maybe some day in the future you might come to a recognition of why you are called to that and who it is that calls you to that.

I've only got a minute. I agree with you about Europe at times but although it isn't a straight line, (I have friends that live in your country 70 years ago), I think that trend has been towards a kinder and more just world. (Read Micah 6:8.)

Sorry to be slow getting back. I've been busy. Obviously I don't agree and I do believe that the resurrection in particular is an historic event.However, what I was suggesting in that he be sure just what he is rejecting. None of us have a lock on all truth and there is a divergence of opinion on many aspects of Christianity amongst Christians. That is no dount a huge revelation to you. I think many make the mistake of rejecting the Christianity of Jerry Falwell without considering the Christianity of some like CS Lewis or N T Wright. I essentially reject the Jerry Falwell brand of Christianity but I embrace the Christianity of Lewis and Wright.Edited by GDR, : No reason given.

There is no doubt that there are unending differences in the beliefs of various Christian groups. I can see where it makes being part of the atheistic world comfortable, as you have nothing to disagree on, which frees up a lot of time to argue with the theists. I think the fact that there are differences is an indication that within that framework of belief there is truth. I like what N T Wright says in his talks. He says that "probably about a third of what he says is wrong, but the problem is he doesn't know which third it is. It seems to me that this is true about so much and even in science. As an outsider to the scientific world it does seem to me that the more that is learned the more it is realized how much more there is to know. I love reading about QM and relativity but it has made me realize that the world we live in is nothing like what we perceive.I think that one of the problems is that religion gets tangled up with nationalism. It makes me a little uncomfortable to see a countries flag and Christian symbols held up together as complimentary equals. Christ taught that ultimately the enemy, (the enemy being evil itself), is overcome by sacrificial love. The message that you are loving someone is difficult to get across when at the same time you are dropping bombs on them. When we try and rationalize God's interest with our national interests then we can wind up justifying all sorts of things in the name of Christianity that IMHO can't be. I think that we can also see this in many of the OT stories.It seems to me that much of Christian belief is subjective. I believe that the one essential element of the Christian faith is the bodily resurrection of Jesus. Without the resurrection Christianity becomes a Jewish sect IMHO, as Jesus becomes just another prophet. If we accept the resurrection as an historical fact we then start to look at everything else, including the Bible through that lens.I contend that there is a case to be made for the resurrection, but that case can only be made if one accepts that it is possible at all. If we start from the premise that it cannot happen under any circumstances then obviously we have to look for other starting points for our beliefs. I see them as the only two options but I think we all, to varying degrees, favour love of self. Hopefully though, and I believe this to be the case, mankind as a whole is excruciatingly slowly moving away from that. As individuals we make choices everyday that fall somewhere between the two. I keep going back to the basic question of what God wants of us and that is to humbly love kindness and to do justice. (Micah 6:8) I suppose we have to always put in an if, or we will never progress. From your perspective you have to start with, 'if there is no god'. I have to start with, 'if there is a god', but as a Christian I also have to start with, 'if the resurrection of Jesus is an historical fact'.Thanks for the discussion.

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Everybody is entitled to my opinion.

I think that it is a common Christian fallacy that God knows what I might do on a whim tomorrow. If you read through the Bible God is continuously reacting to what people have done. The various characters in the OT were continuously negotiating with God. Jesus prayed to the Father. What would be the point of prayer if all of creation was pre-programmed?I believe that God brought humans into existence, (whether by an evolutionary process or not), to be co-stewards of creation. Frankly, we have no idea of what options God might have had in bringing our world into existence. I think that another way of looking at it is this. The ultimate power that evil, as exercised by humans, has over you is death. Jesus showed that in the end evil does not have that ultimate power. Jesus went to Jerusalem knowing full well what would happen, went to the cross, died and came out the other side with a resurrected body. He defeated death on the cross.Also if Jesus had just died normally, and had not done what he did on the cross and afterwards it would just have meant that He was just another failed messiah or a prophet with messianic delusions. In either case his kingdom message would be meaningless, which in turn would mean that there would be no church in existence today.Edited by GDR, : typo