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Author | Topic: YHWH, Yahweh, Jehovah, adonai, lord, elohim, god, allah, Allah thread. | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Buzsaw Inactive Member |
1. elohim - Hebrew generic word for god/a god or if you were Arabic speaking, Hebrew elohim, English god or Arabic allah (lower case) are the words for a god, whether pagan or otherwise.
2. adonai - hebrew generic word meaning a master or lord 3. Allah - (higher case proper name) The name ascribed by Mohammed to be the one and only supreme god. when he determined that the numerous gods/allahs which were once worshipped at Mecca were to be abandoned and that all were to worship his god, Allah. This name was at one time in pagan history ascribed to the moon god. This was the prominent god of Mohammed's ancestory. Many, including myself believe this is indicative of the crescent moon as the official Islamic religious symbold on flags and structures. Mohammed's father's name, in fact was Abd-Allah (meaning in English = slave of god). 4. YHWH - literal Hebrew for the Biblical god, pronounced in Hebrew, Yaweh, in ancient English something like Eowah and in modern English (after J s and V s were added,) Jehovah Whether in Hebrew or in English, this is the official proper higher case name for the god of the Bible. Note: Because of a superstition of the Jews during the last few centuries before Christ, the name YHWH/Yaweh was not to be spoken and word adonai/lord was usually substitued in translation of the name of the Hebrew god, Yahweh. Most of the NT translators have picked up on this so that's why the scores of texts in which the manuscript stated the name Yahweh/YHWH, it was changed to adonai/lord. The 1901 American Standard Bible (my favorite) is one of the ones which resisted this and correctly translated the Biblical god's name as written in the manuscript. Had the translators remained true to the literal manuscripts in translating, this confusion about Allah and Jehovah being one and the same would not be a problem as it is today. Your various translations will have the words elohim and adonai, i.e. god and lord in the higher case and capitalized. This was done for respect, but again, another deviation from the original manuscript in which these words were not intended as proper names. 5. To my knowledge, the name YHWH/Yaweh/Jehovah does not exist in the Koran and is not allowed to be preached or taught in most fundamentalist Islamic nations. To these people it would be a strange foreign unknown god unless they learned of it outside of religious instruction or strict islamic scholastic educational mediums. 6. The higher case (proper names) of either Allah or Elohim do not exist in any of the Hebrew Biblical manuscrips. elohim is always the lower case word meaning a god or the god and can refer to either Jehovah or any other god depending on the context. 7. Conclusion: The proper name gods, Allah and Jehovah are not one and the same god. Mohammed simply eliminated the proper name of the Hebrew god of Abraham, Yahweh from his thinking and his book and ascribed all pertaining to the Biblical Yahweh/Jehovah to his pagan god, Allah, god of his pagan worshipping ancestors, including his parents, who worshipped at Mecca. This is important for Americans, as well as others to understand, because Mohammed intended to have all to believe his god is one and the same as the Biblical god so as to make it palatable for Christians and Jews to convert to Islam and for his religion to be acceptable to all in his drive to herd all of humanity under the umbrella and the domination of his doctrines and his god, Allah. Please understand that this information is not given because I hate Muslims. My motive is simply to promote the truth with factual material. I believe it to be irrefutable factual information. If you do not agree, please, this is not a thread for venting on the messenger. It is a thread for dialogue in which all are welcome to either accept or reject and to inject facts which any feel might shed light on what is said as to it's credibility or on any statements to the contrary. [This message has been edited by buzsaw, 10-05-2003]
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Buzsaw Inactive Member |
I forgot to define one of the words, I see, that being the word (lower case) allah.
I have communicated with a friend who is a Bible translator in an Islamic majority nation. He informed me that this word allah is their word equivalent for the English word, god. So I take it by this that if he were to communicate to the people a statement like "there are a number of gods worshipped in such and such a village," he would have to use the word, "allah." So his statement would go like this: "There are a number of allahs worshipped in such and such a place." If he were to tell them about Jehovah, the god of the Bible, as I see it he would need to put it this way. "The allah Jehovah is the allah of the Bible," or the English equivalent of "The god Jehovah is the god og the Bible." Now that's the lower case word or generic word for a god. But if you raise that word to the higher case and capitalize the A in Allah, you're now talking about something that is not in the Hebrew manuscripts -- a higher case proper name for elohim or allah being Allah, the god of the Koran. Conclusion: Allah is the god of the Koran. Jehovah is the god of the Bible. They are not one and the same god. Thus the great controversy as to whose god will prevail, that of the Bible, or that of the Koran. I hope this helps some to understand why the cortroversy even exists. It's the god Allah, his prophet, Mohammed, his book, the Koranvs The god Jehovah, his prophet/messiah Jesus and his book the Bible.
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Buzsaw Inactive Member |
quote: Who's arguing? Who's causing bloodshed?Some wonder why some Islamic nations forbid any Christian thought or the Christian god Jehovah and/or his Christ to be acknowledged or talked about in their nations. This is intended to answer that question for them. Islam is freely taught and practiced in our nation where Christianity is the majority religion. Not so in these Islamic nations for Christians. So it's really Islamic leaders, both political and religious who have initiated the conflict and brought on the intolerance. Also in two threads I have been asked questions about this and rather than go off topic there, here's my answers. Do you have a problem with posting knowledge about this subject which many are confused about, Zephyr?
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Buzsaw Inactive Member |
The following is a response from the Koran verses thread to PaulK's post as follows which should have been addressed in this thread designated for this subject.
quote: The following is also a response to Rei's post in the same other thread which should have, according to forum rules been posted in this thread. This post is as follows:
quote: (Here I thought someone here in town was going to genuinely reform and be nice to me besides my Muslim friend, (so far) Andya} LOL! PaulK,In neither of the words you cite does it specifically name the supreme God as to his proper name. It was clearly understood that there was a specific name, YHWH which was the creator supreme god's proper name. Other words and names attributed to him were descriptive in various ways or attributed places, people or things to him, such as is the case with Immanuel or Bethel. PaulK and Rei,For example, it was understood that the name proper name of Joshua was just that, Joshua. Now, just as one would say Joshua was a man, one would say Jehovah is a god (elohim, Hebrew or allah, Arabic) Both Allah and Jehovah were also considered lords, i.e. adonai in Hebrew, but again this was not the proper name of either gods. When translating literally and imo, correctly, one would not use the higher case by capitalizing either of the words el -elohim (god) or adonai (lord). My point here is that there was a name in the Hebrew language understood to be what we would know as the higer case which would be what we know as the proper name of the supreme being, just as was the case with people and places. Savvy? [This message has been edited by buzsaw, 10-06-2003]
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Buzsaw Inactive Member |
quote: What better source than the OT of the Bible itself? Go to Deuteronomy 6:5 where you find this, using the Hebrew interlinear:
quote: Please note carefully the wording in this text, Jehovah [meaning the existing one] is your god meaning deity. So Jehovah/YHWH is clearly the proper name of the Biblical god where as god/elohim is clearly what the god Jehovah is. It means he, the existing one/Jehovah is a god or deity. Now, do you yet savvy?? I don't know how much plainer I could explain it. I know my son when he was age ten would have easily been able to grasp and fathom this vaaaaary deeeeeeeply complicated concept, whereas you people ever so educated seem to have an awful biiiiig problem with it. Is it that you really don't want to admit to being taught anything by Mr buz who, alas has no degree, or what?? Now, if el, (short for elohim) is indeed that, this would also apply to your el which you attribute to the Arabic word allah which has the same meaning. So allah/elohim/god is not the proper name of the Biblical god. It is a word used, meaning deity to describe what this Jehovah is. He is a god/elohim/allah. So in order for Muslims to claim Allah is the god of the OT, they would have to accept that Jehovah is also god/allah and would have no problem with that name. That's not the case, though. Their god's proper name is Allah and there is no proper name in the OT of elohim. [This message has been edited by buzsaw, 10-06-2003]
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Buzsaw Inactive Member |
quote: Mohammed allegedly had visions and received messages from god/Allah all his life after about age 40 as I understand it. There was a time in his life when he wondered if his early visions were of god or of Satan via the jinn. His wife, Kadejah and others reassured him that they were of god.According to Alfred Guillaume, Islam London, Penguin books, 1954 pp. 28, 29 while on a retreat to the mountains, in a dream the angel Gabriel came to him with a cloth on which was written a verse which, when he woke seemed to be written in his heart. He became very troubled and irritable, wondering whether this was of god or satan , thinking to commit suicide, but on his way to a precipice a voice from heaven allegedly came to him assuring him that he was to be an apostle of God.
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Buzsaw Inactive Member |
quote: PaulK, would you care to tell the good readers here exactly what the Hebrew text says? I have the words before me in my Hebrew/English interlinear. The English words I have posted are the nearest English equivalent to the Hebrew text arranged so as to be able to be read in English. Can you top that for the good folks here?
quote: Welllll, ladedah and rootetoot for PaulK! He's got three Christian sources for his argument and to heck with what scripture itself says, it appears. Is that the best you can do, me friend?
quote: Yah sure, PaulK and your nonsenese is getting too futile for the time I have to lend to it. Have a goodn n go with god, the god, Jehovah that is. [This message has been edited by buzsaw, 10-06-2003]
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Buzsaw Inactive Member |
Mr Buzsaw, I don't know what your probelm with the name of God, but I'd like to help you clear things up.
quote: THANK YOU!! THANK YOU!! THANK YOU, Andyea, my Muslim friend!! You have just wonderfully and succinctly demonstrated the basics of what I've been trying to say, but not knowing the Arabic language I didn't realize that the Arabic lower case for the word 'god' which could denote any god is a similar, but different word than the higher case capitalized word for the Muslim god, Allah which also means "God."I was aware of your creed, which all who wish to become Muslims must believe and recite. But I have wondered how Muslims would write on paper "No god but Allah. As you have just explained, translated in English it would translate as follows: " No god except God." If you go back to my opening post #2 this is pretty much what I was trying to explain, that in Arabic there would be a lower and a higher case for god, except that I used the word "allah" for the lower case and Allah for the higher case or name of your deity. You have enlighened us all by showing that the lower case or 'generic' word for a god is "ilaha" and the higher case is "Allah." Now, you may be interested to know that in the Hebrew text there is only one word for "god" whether referring to Jehovah/YHWH of the Bible, Allah of the Quran or another god, and that word is elohim, meaning god. Translators, when translating the word go by the context as to whether they choose to capitalize it in the English. It it refers to Jehovah/YHWH, they capitalize the word. If they us it to denote another god, they use the lower case {non-caps.) So as to whether your god, Allah is in the Bible, that would have to be determined by the context in which it is claimed it exists and by whether your god and the YHWH of the Bible are one and the same. Again thanks much for this interesting lesson.
quote: That's also true of the Biblical god, Jehovah. Many names are attributed to him as descriptive, but that does not make them his official name.
quote: But there is no dispute among Biblical scholars, either Jewish or Christian that I am aware of that the word YHWH means "the existing one" or the "I am" as Moses puts it in the book of Exodus when Moses asked God who he should tell Pharoah of Egypt who sent him. Jehovah told him to say "I AM" has sent you. Genesis 3:14,15: " God replied, "I am who am." Then he added, "This is what you shall tell the Israelites: I AM sent me to you."God spoke further to Moses, "Thus shall you say to the Israelites: The LORD, the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, the God of Jacob, has sent me to you. "This is my name forever; this is my title for all generations." God3, the One4 Just a speculation of mine, but could it be that YHWH actually just mean 'He'? I understand that Jews are forbidden to say the name of God, so could it be that they just called God as 'He' (YHWH)?{quote} But this superstition came about in the latter centuries of Jewish history and if that were the case, the scribes would not have been allowed to put it in the scriptures in the first place. There is no way for anyone to determine if the He referred to YHWH. I would doubt it very much as that name, YHWH/Yaweh, to my knowledge is nowhere in the Quran.
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Buzsaw Inactive Member |
quote: 1. Genesis 1 is a sequential record of the creation and Genesis 2 is not sequential, nor is it contradictory to Genesis 1.2. In Genesis 2:4 the Hebrew text says, "Jehovah God made earth and heaven." So you see here what I've been trying to say, that Jehovah, {the existing one} is the god (elohim) of the Bible. As Rei someplace correctly stated, there is no upper case or lower in the Hebrew. The context determines that in translating into English where we do have upper and lower cases. 8. Thus there are not really two dissimilar names for god as you state. The god of the Bible is referred by both his proper name and his discriptive names throughout the OT. [This message has been edited by buzsaw, 10-07-2003]
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Buzsaw Inactive Member |
quote: My understanding is that this was not the case with the earlier scribes. They were very meticulous to copy every jot, tittle and letter exactly as written in the manuscript of scripture they copied from. The vowels would be determined by tradition and were likely traditionally determined by the phonics of the consonents.
quote: But you're ignoring the fact that the Js and the Vs were also later adopted into the English language, so this coupled with my above statement is the reason nearly all translators use the name Jehovah to translate YHWH into English Bible texts wherever it is used, including the translators of the King James, which does use the word a relative few times in the OT. It was solely the unfounded superstition of the Jews who had departed from good standing with God that they enjoyed in the earlier history of the nation before this superstition existed, imo.
quote: .........And, of course, that would lend no credibility to anything concerning the Bible, as the Canaanites were pagan cultures.
quote: I as much as said the same thing, as I've all along contended that the word elohim would be used by Hebrew scholars and scribes in reference to any god, be that god, Jehovah, Baal, or any other god they would have had occasion to mention.
quote: .....Yes, and my purpose in this thread has been to sort out all the misconceptions about this topic and to dispel them by factual information from the credible sources I've drawn in order that it not be all so mysterious as these misconceptions have caused it to appear. [This message has been edited by buzsaw, 10-07-2003]
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Buzsaw Inactive Member |
quote: I understand your point and one explanation for this may be that as no other gods were in the picture during evenings and mornings of creation, it would be assumed that the god/elohim of creation was Jehovah without reference to the name. Food for thought. That's all.
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Buzsaw Inactive Member |
quote: I don't know how much Biblical history of Israel you know or whether you are aware of the warnings God gave about when they as his people disobeyed, but it was after their decline the last few centuries BC that this paranoia about the name of God came about as I understand it. Blasphemy occurs whether or not one uses the proper name of Jehovah or another discriptive name attributed to him, so it appears to be groundless superstition. [This message has been edited by buzsaw, 10-09-2003]
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Buzsaw Inactive Member |
quote: I forgot to state BC and have edited the post to correct. Somewhere else where I mentioned it, I had it right, that it was BC. Thanks for bringing it to my attention.
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Buzsaw Inactive Member |
quote: This's nonsense for the following reasons: 1. The Biblical text does not use the third person, "he." It would be improper to change the name as given in scripture in referring to the name in the text as stated by God. This's simply a spin job for those who are trying to distort the truth about the name. It's fine to say "he is" in referring to him as existing, but that's not what he said his name was. 2. The fact is that God's name is clearly stated and is both known and knowable. YHWH is not the only Hebrew word with no vowels. None of the Hebrew words have vowels and as in speaking the name of God, YHWH, the phonics of the consonents would determine what vowel sounds which would apply. So "Yahweh" would be the traditional way to pronounce the name since just as in any other Hebrew word, that is the closest phonic sound of the consonents which spell the name. Then when you translate the name into English, you use the nearest English equivalent to Yahweh, which the translators have determined to be Jehovah, since the Js and Vs have been introduced into our language. 3. There's no reason in the world why the name is unknowable. The meaning is very clearly "the existing one" or as God told Moses, the "I AM." The Hebrew word/name YHWH became the known name of their god because it was the word/name which has the meaning "I AM" (the existing one.} 4. As I've said before and I repeat, until the Jews had moved away from their close relationship they once enjoyed with their god that they developed this reluctance from speaking his name. It was not always so. It was phonically no harder for them to speak that name than any other Hebrew word, all of which consisted of only consonents.
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Buzsaw Inactive Member |
quote: Yah sure, and personal insultive inuendos add nothing to augment your arguments, nor do they refute my factual statements, do they?
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