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Author | Topic: Can a valid, supportable reason be offered for deconversion | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
lyx2no Member (Idle past 4746 days) Posts: 1277 From: A vast, undifferentiated plane. Joined:
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a certain amount of faith is required to believe that a donkey spoke w/ Gods [sic] assistance [sic] Yet reading only one of your posts proves beyond unmitigated doubt that a donkey can type rubbish. P.S.: You owe me royalties on your arguments from authority. Nonconformists come one at a time.
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arachnophilia Member (Idle past 1373 days) Posts: 9069 From: god's waiting room Joined: |
Dawn Bertot writes: friend, no argument from it will derail anything I have been saying or have believed and studied. I have encouraged you to bring your strongest or comprehensive argument here, yet you refuse i refuse because it will utterly derail this topic, and there is a certain merit to having things in the right places. those wishing to learn about or debate prophecy are probably going to be looking in the prophecy thread. there is a reason we try to stick to the topic on this board -- everything quickly becomes chaos if we do not. why exactly is it so hard for you to go post in that thread?
If a person doesnt even believe such things against the other areas of evidence that support the scriptures, how or why would one care whether a writer was inspired to make a prediction to begin with. er, you are complicating the issue entirely too much. if the text is not truthful, it's not inspired. or god lies. take your pick.
In contrast, if the writer was inspired, the it would follow that only God could explain a dual or an illudstration type prophecy, correct/ no, it does not follow. because then the reader would have to inspired as well. at which point, the bible itself no longer serves any function. it would have no reason to exist.
While a prophecy may have applied to a certain old test character, why is God not allowed to make it have a fuller and expanded meaning, for his ultimate purposes you are more than welcome to examine that position in the prophecy thread. however, i think you find that this "fuller and expanded meaning" is generally a tiny sliver of the actual prophecy, taken entirely out of context, and that the real prophecy as written in the OT has the fuller and more complete meaning.
So my friend it matters greatly whether you believe they were inspired no, it really doesn't. it only matters whether or not the NT claims of fulfilled prophecy are supported.
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Dawn Bertot Member (Idle past 112 days) Posts: 3571 Joined: |
If I find the Bible to be just a collection of writings on a variety of subjects addressed to people of different eras and cultures, why is that not sufficient? If both the NT and OLD writers were inspired, then there is a theme, its Jesus Christ, all the way through But only God could make this clear in the nature of more inspiration, correct? If neither were not, who cares who Jesus was correct? At best he was a liar and the prophets were insane because they believed they had performed miracles Oh yes, inspiration matters greatly The difference between the Koran and the Bible, is that the Koran clearly even by a simple application and reading has no theme anywhere. It seems to be random sayings slung together w/ on obvious purpose Since I can find an obvious and clear theme between the testaments, atleast attested to by the Nt writers. perhaps you could go to the Koran and find the some sort of theme Dawn Bertot Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.
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arachnophilia Member (Idle past 1373 days) Posts: 9069 From: god's waiting room Joined: |
Dawn Bertot writes: The difference between the Koran and the Bible, is that the Koran clearly even by a simple application and reading has no theme anywhere. It seems to be random sayings slung together w/ on obvious purpose perhaps the problem is that you're simply not inspired. see, if you don't think it's inspired, then you obviously won't see the themes.
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arachnophilia Member (Idle past 1373 days) Posts: 9069 From: god's waiting room Joined: |
Dawn Bertot writes: can you check to see and understand what Gods overall intentions and purposes were by giving inspiration to the writer? yes. believe it or not, the bible is not that hard to understand. you just kind of have to read it. i don't know why you think it's so incomprehensible.
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jar Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Dawn Bertot writes: Since I can find an obvious and clear theme between the testaments, atleast attested to by the Nt writers. perhaps you could go to the Koran and find the some sort of theme Yes, we all agree that YOU see some obvious and clear theme between the testaments, but that is irrelevant to the questions I asked, as is the Qur'an. In case you missed them, here are the questions you were asked.
quote: Note that I asked if what I described would be a sufficient reason. If someone looks at the Bible and finds no unity of doctrine (and note that you have never shown such a unity of doctrine) and theme (and note that you have never shown that there is a common theme or explained how that could possibly be true since there is no such thing as "The Bible"), would that be sufficient reason? Remember, in case you have forgotten, that the topic is "Can a valid, supportable reason be offered for deconversion ". Edited by jar, : left out the word see in "...YOU see some..." Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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Dawn Bertot Member (Idle past 112 days) Posts: 3571 Joined: |
perhaps the problem is that you're simply not inspired. see, if you don't think it's inspired, then you obviously won't see the themes. Do you think its filled with allegations of miracles? So should i look at it as if those claims are not true as well? When you remove inspiration and the miraculous your left with nothing but rambling, insane, liars, corrrect? Dawn Bertot
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arachnophilia Member (Idle past 1373 days) Posts: 9069 From: god's waiting room Joined: |
oh, clearly you can't tell that they aren't true, because you're not inspired.
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Dawn Bertot Member (Idle past 112 days) Posts: 3571 Joined: |
omeone looks at the Bible and finds no unity of doctrine (and note that you have never shown such a unity of doctrine) and theme (and note that you have never shown that there is a common theme or explained how that could possibly be true since there is no such thing as "The Bible"), would that be sufficient reason? No, for two reasons. One you have ignored the obvious and clear evidence that lends support to the scriptures verses other writings we have already discussed Secondly, based on a lack of and ignoring that evdience you have rejected even the notion that it may be inspired by God Which renders your approach to discredit Christ silly, seeing you dont even believe the writers you use to discredit him. Strange logic Dawn Bertot Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given. Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.
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jar Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Dawn Bertot writes: jar writes: {If s}omeone looks at the Bible and finds no unity of doctrine (and note that you have never shown such a unity of doctrine) and theme (and note that you have never shown that there is a common theme or explained how that could possibly be true since there is no such thing as "The Bible"), would that be sufficient reason? No, for two reasons. One you have ignored the obvious and clear evidence that lends support to the scriptures verses other writings we have already discussed Secondly, based on a lack of and ignoring that evdience you have rejected even the notion that it may be inspired by God Which renders your approach to discredit Christ silly, seeing you dont even believe the writers you use to discredit him. Strange logic Dawn Bertot First, if you think you have actually presented any evidence, please provide a link to the post where you included that evidence. Again, if you can show where I "rejected even the notion that it may be inspired by God", then provide a link to that post. If you can show that I at any time have tried to discredit Christ, please provide a link to that message. Remember Dawn, people here can actually check what has been posted just as we can check to see what is actually written in the Old and New Testament. Finally, you still have not addressed the question. I'll try yet again in the hope that you will understand what is being asked. If someone looks at the Bible and finds no unity of doctrine (and note that you have never shown such a unity of doctrine) and theme (and note that you have never shown that there is a common theme or explained how that could possibly be true since there is no such thing as "The Bible"), would that be sufficient reason? There is nothing in there about YOUR opinions, it is a straight forward question related to their findings. If they look at the Bible and find no unity of doctrine (and note that you have never shown such a unity of doctrine) and theme (and note that you have never shown that there is a common theme or explained how that could possibly be true since there is no such thing as "The Bible"), would that be sufficient reason? Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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Dr Adequate Member (Idle past 314 days) Posts: 16113 Joined: |
Sorry, when you can boast the history, unity and details that is the 'scriptures', maybe you can make such a claim. Are you related to the fella that said there was a spaceship behind the moon to take us all away. You must be because your claim carries about as much weight Do you have any fulfilled predictions before the one you made above? That would also help us believe you You really should learn how to debate DA. Oh yeah thats right, youve never actually done it, have you? This gibberish seems unrelated to my point. Perhaps this is because you find my point unanswerable, or perhaps this is merely another manifestation of your long, hopeless, pointless struggle with the English language. Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.
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Panda Member (Idle past 3742 days) Posts: 2688 From: UK Joined: |
Dawn writes:
This makes a lot more sense with the extra word inserted.
You really should learn how to debate disingenuously DA. Oh yeah thats right, youve never actually done it, have you?
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Dawn Bertot Member (Idle past 112 days) Posts: 3571 Joined: |
correct. you can, however, prove when they are not. as it turns out, it's actually much easier to prove a negative than it is to prove a positive. nothing of course could ever dispel my view of the evidence of scripture or its inspiration, buts lets assume for a moment, it was not inspired. Besides there being no need to demonstrate whether Jesus was the messiah, if there were no inspiration(IOWs who would care)what evidence exacally would you use to refute that idea?
jewish messianic prophecy, and christian claims of fulfillment do not match. one or both of them must be wrong. Excluding theTalmud, which Jesus often corrected, lets stay strickly with the OT prophets. Why is your statement factual?
so, basically because it says so? Here speaking of inspiration No. Not only because it says so, but it is in line with what the Old testament taught concerning a Messiah and the fact that God never intended the jews to have an earthly king Secondly, the Jewish writers of the 1st century were in a much better perspective to know what the prophets meanings were. Thier perspective would have been much better than ours Thirdly, your position assumes that an earthly ruler was what God intended. This is why the do not appear to match to you However, Gods words to Samuel about kings and kingdoms, more closley matches that of Christs and the Apostles God should have been thier only king. Christ reinforced that sentiment in his ministry and words. "My kingdom is not of the world" "The kingdom is within you" "All authority has been given to me in heaven and earth" So your conclusion is invalid concerning the prophets, or more specifically Gods intentions It might interest you to know that not even the prophets, often understood what the fulfillment of thier words were or the words they spoke, according to Peter. But then we cant trust Peter can we, because he was just as uninspired as the Old Teastament prophets, correct? Dawn Bertot Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.
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Dawn Bertot Member (Idle past 112 days) Posts: 3571 Joined: |
Again, if you can show where I "rejected even the notion that it may be inspired by God", then provide a link to that post. Wow that some fine sidestepping son Jar, do you believe (that from your perspective that the Old testament prophets were inspired of God? Yes, No, I dont know, theres no way to tell, etc, etc, etc.
If someone looks at the Bible and finds no unity of doctrine (and note that you have never shown such a unity of doctrine) and theme (and note that you have never shown that there is a common theme or explained how that could possibly be true since there is no such thing as "The Bible"), would that be sufficient reason? I have clearly shown a unity of doctrine in the main purpose of the scriptures to begin with, Christ
explained how that could possibly be true since there is no such thing as "The Bible"), If God is its author and the prophets were speaking by his authority and inspiration, it is a BOOK and has the unity of theme I demonstrated between the OT prophets and the ones in the NEW No, to answer your question directly, that would not be suffiecient reason to deconvert, because, they have not looked hard enough and would have ingnored both reason and revelation. anyone can walk away from anything, thinking this or that, or that they are justified, but they are not doing it for a good reason, if the dont see unity of theme and purpose. Its to easy to miss Jar, is the Bible Old or New or both inspired by God, in your opinion? its really not a hard question to answer Dawn Bertot Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.
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Dawn Bertot Member (Idle past 112 days) Posts: 3571 Joined: |
P.S.: You owe me royalties on your arguments from authority. Begging your pardon. Is there a point to the above comment. If you have an argument, then just present it. Even if you are actually a ninth grader, Ill take it nice and slow so you can follow along Forgive me if it wasnt you that claimed to be a ninth grader, in times past, I thought it was you but I could be mistaken Dawn Bertot
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