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Author Topic:   Can a valid, supportable reason be offered for deconversion
Dawn Bertot
Member (Idle past 196 days)
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


(1)
Message 288 of 566 (597132)
12-19-2010 8:20 PM
Reply to: Message 287 by jar
12-19-2010 7:32 PM


Re: How to test Dawn Bertot's writings.
Whether the writers were inspired by God has absolutely nothing to do with whether what they wrote refers to Jesus.
The way you test the claimed prophecies is to look at what was actually written and then compare that to what was later written.
Jar I know you think you understand what you are saying from a logical standpoint and proposition, but you dont.
Listen carefully. The same books and prophets you quote are filled with the prophets claiming miracles and involvement in miraculous activity. if that is not true then there is no reason to beleive the physical facts they claim to be speaking about either correct
So if the test is to LOOK AT WHAT IS WRITTEN and what is written is unreliable and inaccurate, what would naturally follow, both logically and factually?
Now also, if there is no involvement by God in those claims of the miraculous, then there is no reason to believe anything they have to say, not to mention, Messiahs and kingdoms correct?
So, inspiration is both a logical, structural and Biblical concept that has to be accepted or rejected, PRIOR to any investigation about Messiahs, kingdoms and claims
So now, I will ask the direct question again. Is the OT and the prophets claims to inspiration a reality, in your mind. Yes or No?
I know you think you know how to debate this logically, but as indicated by numerous posts you do not.
Do you now see the relevance of whether you believe it is inspired or not?
If there were no miracles or the miraculous you might have a valid logical argument
Because there are, you do not, Simply because WHAT IS WRITTEN, about historical facts, may be as unreliable as the claimed miracles, correct?
Inspired by God or not?
Dawn Bertot
Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.
Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 287 by jar, posted 12-19-2010 7:32 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 290 by jar, posted 12-19-2010 8:32 PM Dawn Bertot has replied
 Message 300 by Dr Adequate, posted 12-19-2010 9:34 PM Dawn Bertot has replied

  
Dawn Bertot
Member (Idle past 196 days)
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


(1)
Message 289 of 566 (597133)
12-19-2010 8:30 PM
Reply to: Message 287 by jar
12-19-2010 7:32 PM


Re: How to test Dawn Bertot's writings.
As usual, it appears that all you can do is pretend that your issues have not been addressed
Ironically you have failed to address the only question that matters. or at best you you have failed to answer it DIRECTLY
Dawn Bertot

This message is a reply to:
 Message 287 by jar, posted 12-19-2010 7:32 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 291 by jar, posted 12-19-2010 8:34 PM Dawn Bertot has not replied

  
Dawn Bertot
Member (Idle past 196 days)
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


(1)
Message 292 of 566 (597136)
12-19-2010 8:36 PM
Reply to: Message 290 by jar
12-19-2010 8:32 PM


Re: How to test Dawn Bertot's writings.
Whether or not the writing were inspired is irrelevant, the issue is "What is actually written."
Is "what is actually written" about the miracles and the miraculous true and can it be trusted?
Dawn Bertot

This message is a reply to:
 Message 290 by jar, posted 12-19-2010 8:32 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 299 by jar, posted 12-19-2010 9:20 PM Dawn Bertot has not replied

  
Dawn Bertot
Member (Idle past 196 days)
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


(1)
Message 301 of 566 (597182)
12-20-2010 9:27 AM
Reply to: Message 294 by arachnophilia
12-19-2010 8:52 PM


Re: scriptural unity
that should be the end of the thread right there.
Could any evidence or argument that presently exists, convert you to the idea that Christ is the Messiah?
No, the thread should not end, because we both have strong opinions
inspiration is irrelevant. if jesus does not match predictions for the jewish messiah, then he is not the jewish messiah. it doesn't matter if any of those claims are inspired or not.
You keep telling me this but provide no Passage from any prophet that should make me believe that Christ did not meet the
requirements
Im sorry but to believe that inspiration in a book repleat with miracles, is not relevant, makes no logical sense
...well, it's not. see the whole thread on the topic. and if god never intended the jews to have an earthly king, well, he sure messed up installing king david on the throne. and every king afterward, down to zedekiah.
While I said INTENDED, I should have said it was not in Gods original plan for them to have an earthly king.
His intention in giving them a king was to demonstrate that they actually needed no earthly king and should not have insisted upon on one . They had a king, it was God
Those are Gods on words, not mine. Those words were spoken before any earthly king was in place
Its always a human charactetistic to try and suplant Gods wishes.
Here is another example. Christ is the head f the Church. He reigns from heaven as head of the Church.
Not satisfied with this setup, the Catholics have given thier Church an earthly head, the Pope.
There is no room for such, in reason or revelation
Such is human nature
Dawn Bertot
Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.
Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.
Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.
Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 294 by arachnophilia, posted 12-19-2010 8:52 PM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 350 by arachnophilia, posted 12-21-2010 10:38 PM Dawn Bertot has not replied

  
Dawn Bertot
Member (Idle past 196 days)
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


(1)
Message 302 of 566 (597184)
12-20-2010 9:45 AM
Reply to: Message 295 by arachnophilia
12-19-2010 8:55 PM


Re: How to test writings.
the fact that you seem to think it's some outrageous claim we are making that we can somehow divine what the authors meant simply by reading what they wrote.
I said nothing about your claim being outrageous, I said it made no logical or rational sense sense, without inspiration
jar presented one in this thread. you never responded.
similarly, there are about a dozen more in the prophecy thread, which you are also ignoring.
And you and Jar continue to ignore in argumentation form that to use or imply that the prophets words in one area should be considered as rational, because you are using them to prove a point, then ignore the rest of what they have to say because it is not reliable, makes no logical or biblical sense
Here is an example.
Should I trust Isa's words when in Chapter six verse one he says, "I saw the Lord sitting on his throne in heaven and his train filled the temple"
Are these words true and reliable
Dawn Bertot

This message is a reply to:
 Message 295 by arachnophilia, posted 12-19-2010 8:55 PM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 351 by arachnophilia, posted 12-21-2010 10:44 PM Dawn Bertot has not replied

  
Dawn Bertot
Member (Idle past 196 days)
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


(1)
Message 303 of 566 (597186)
12-20-2010 9:54 AM
Reply to: Message 297 by lyx2no
12-19-2010 9:03 PM


Re: With God's Assistance.
See my Message 18. I, knowing you had no argument except those of authority, place dibbs upon them. You, using nothing but arguments of authority, owe me royalties upon them.
But more importantly, they are arguments of a logical and rational nature
My argument as to "Can a valid, supportable reason be offered for de-conversion" is "Any reason one wants to use to dump unreasoned beliefs is valid and supportable if the apostate thinks it's valid and supportable, and no one else has claim to argue his decision otherwise."
The assertion of "unreasoned" is not an argument, its an assertion
Were I riding a one-peddle tricycle backwards while wearing flip-flops my dust would settle before you got your shoes tied.
I was right, you were the ninth grader
As to giving you a reason for you to dump your sniveling, little god; why on Earth would I care to do that? I think it's funny. I like funny.
Dont worry, you will learn as you go along, not to make assertions you cannot support. Thanks for admitting you do not have one
Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 297 by lyx2no, posted 12-19-2010 9:03 PM lyx2no has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 307 by lyx2no, posted 12-20-2010 12:41 PM Dawn Bertot has replied

  
Dawn Bertot
Member (Idle past 196 days)
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


(1)
Message 304 of 566 (597187)
12-20-2010 10:07 AM
Reply to: Message 300 by Dr Adequate
12-19-2010 9:34 PM


Re: How to test Dawn Bertot's writings.
Trying to decide whether they were inspired before deciding whether they were accurate is putting the cart before the horse.
Hardly
Trying to rely on a source, that one one believes to be unreliable and inacurate, (as jar clearly does)to begin with, is complete nonsense.
Thats the point DA, how can Jar decide thet they are "accurate" before inspired, when he believes thier claims of inspiration and miracles to be myth and made up stuff.
I have asked him and Arch to provide me a statement from the prophets, non-miraculous in nature, that I could consider as reliable, if they can't believe or dont trust anything else they said of a miraculous nature.
How in the world would you distinguish between the two? Which is reliable which is not?
If it turned out that Jesus did fulfill their prophecies then we might ask if they were inspired.
But he did if we are willing to agree and believe ALL the prophets have to say, concerning thier claims of miracles and inspiration
here is an example.
Lets say Bush was still president and i told you i went to visit him in Washington at the white house in the oval office. Now there are four facts you can check. Washington, Bush, whitehouse and oval office
But as I was telling you the story, I said as i was talking to them, him and his wife, and thier chairs began to rise up, a glow appeared around them and an angel placed crown on Bush's head.
Now, you would even begin to question, whether I was actually there, much less having seen such an event, correct?
Inspiration does NOT matter? You've got to be kidding me
Dawn Bertot
Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.
Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 300 by Dr Adequate, posted 12-19-2010 9:34 PM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 305 by Dr Adequate, posted 12-20-2010 10:25 AM Dawn Bertot has replied

  
Dawn Bertot
Member (Idle past 196 days)
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


(1)
Message 310 of 566 (597300)
12-20-2010 7:50 PM
Reply to: Message 305 by Dr Adequate
12-20-2010 10:25 AM


Re: How to test Dawn Bertot's writings.
No-one is relying on such a source, as you would understand if understanding things was amongst your talents.
Son, I know you are trying to assist Jar in making sense out of what he is attempting, but there is no way, to extricate him from the worst from of contradiction he has involved himself in
He is attempting to demonstrate that the Christ mentioned in the NT, is not who and what the prophets were speaking about
By direct implication or outright assertion he is assuming the prophets were correct or accurate in their statements, of and about the the things the prophecied
Now if he is saying as you have indicated that they are not accurate, it would follow logically, he has no way of knowing whether Christ was not the fulfillment
If he is saying they are accurate, then he contradicts himself at other points where he says God does not exist and is not the author of the scriptures, or more specifically the prophets
Please explain why my estimation in this matter is incorrect or invalid?
I cant wait to here it
He has not decided that they are accurate,
Well perhaps he could tell us what it is that he HAS decided, in some logical fashion
Dawn Bertot
Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 305 by Dr Adequate, posted 12-20-2010 10:25 AM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 312 by jar, posted 12-20-2010 8:11 PM Dawn Bertot has replied
 Message 314 by Panda, posted 12-20-2010 8:14 PM Dawn Bertot has replied
 Message 319 by Dr Adequate, posted 12-20-2010 8:30 PM Dawn Bertot has not replied

  
Dawn Bertot
Member (Idle past 196 days)
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


(1)
Message 311 of 566 (597307)
12-20-2010 8:03 PM
Reply to: Message 306 by Blue Jay
12-20-2010 11:51 AM


So, you don't believe that the Holy Ghost plays a role in converting people to Christianity? I'm rather confident that nearly all Christians aside from you do. If you just don't like how I've worded it, then please suggest an alternative wording.
Of course I do. However, what you were speaking about and what I responded to in that previous post was someones personal experience, they should FEEL literally, at or during conversion.
Nowhere does the NT imply or state that you will feel something other than the knowledge and assurance, given his word, that you are now free from the bondage of sin.
The herkie Jerkies and the other claimed feelings are not mentioned as a part of the conversion experience
If it is then please provide the passage
If no such "witness" (or whatever you want to call it) exists, then there is no valid reason to have converted in the first place, which is very strong support indeed for the decision to deconvert.
Wrong. Thats like saying I shouldnt believe in God because I dont feel it (something other than normal sensation) against the clear evidence of his exsistence
IOW, the evidence of God and the evidence that the scriptures is the Word of God, that which supports it, gives me assurance that my life now has purpose above and beyond the grave
The is no need for the Spirit to knock me down or give some sort of funny feeling. The evidence does that for me
Dawn Bertot

This message is a reply to:
 Message 306 by Blue Jay, posted 12-20-2010 11:51 AM Blue Jay has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 327 by Blue Jay, posted 12-21-2010 12:57 PM Dawn Bertot has replied

  
Dawn Bertot
Member (Idle past 196 days)
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


(1)
Message 313 of 566 (597312)
12-20-2010 8:12 PM
Reply to: Message 307 by lyx2no
12-20-2010 12:41 PM


Re: With God's Assistance.
"unreasoned" is neither an argument nor an assertion, it's a condition. The argument is "It's no ones business but his own; therefore, any reason he cares to posit is valid.".
Wrong. But let me know when you have an actual argument, that is not a repetition of my original question, you would like to present. Id be happy to examine it
Dawn Bertot

This message is a reply to:
 Message 307 by lyx2no, posted 12-20-2010 12:41 PM lyx2no has not replied

  
Dawn Bertot
Member (Idle past 196 days)
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


(1)
Message 315 of 566 (597315)
12-20-2010 8:19 PM
Reply to: Message 312 by jar
12-20-2010 8:11 PM


Re: How to test Dawn Bertot's writings.
If YOU think there is an Old Testament prophecy that refers to Jesus, please post the chapter and verse in that thread so your claim can be questioned and challenged.
My simple friend, you cant even get out of the starting gate to attempt such a feat, because you wont even tell us whether the OT prophets were accurate in their statements or estimations
Here it is again. Provide me with a statement/s from the prophets, of a miraculous or non-miraculous nature that you believe to be RELIABLE and ACCURATE, then tell me why you believe both or one is accurate
Then you can get started on questioning Jesus' and the NT claims. Until then you cant even be taken serious from any rational or logical standpoint
heck, at this point I would like it if you would care tell me anything you believe about the OT, muchless the prophets
Have fun.
Dawn Bertot

This message is a reply to:
 Message 312 by jar, posted 12-20-2010 8:11 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 318 by jar, posted 12-20-2010 8:29 PM Dawn Bertot has replied

  
Dawn Bertot
Member (Idle past 196 days)
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


(3)
Message 316 of 566 (597317)
12-20-2010 8:23 PM
Reply to: Message 314 by Panda
12-20-2010 8:14 PM


Re: How to test Dawn Bertot's writings.
Is cognitive dissonance forcing you to deny your lack of ability?
I expect that if you could acknowledge your failure at English you would have to question everything you think the bible says.
Still no argument from Panda. You really dont know anything about these topics or how to debate, do you?
Be honest now, tell us the truth or atleast present an argument
Prehaps you could help Jar out of his problem. Atleast make some sort of groaning noise at an attempt related to the topic
Dawn Bertot
Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 314 by Panda, posted 12-20-2010 8:14 PM Panda has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 323 by Panda, posted 12-21-2010 6:06 AM Dawn Bertot has not replied
 Message 325 by frako, posted 12-21-2010 9:41 AM Dawn Bertot has replied

  
Dawn Bertot
Member (Idle past 196 days)
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


(1)
Message 317 of 566 (597319)
12-20-2010 8:27 PM
Reply to: Message 314 by Panda
12-20-2010 8:14 PM


Re: How to test Dawn Bertot's writings.
This is close to being a sentence too.
A good try. D-
Thanks Mum

This message is a reply to:
 Message 314 by Panda, posted 12-20-2010 8:14 PM Panda has not replied

  
Dawn Bertot
Member (Idle past 196 days)
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


(1)
Message 320 of 566 (597347)
12-20-2010 11:35 PM
Reply to: Message 318 by jar
12-20-2010 8:29 PM


Re: How to test Dawn Bertot's writings.
Dawn, get serious.
Dawn, all of this was addressed in Message 287, Message 254, Message 226, Message 267 and Message 270 and Message 291.
What we are testing is whether or not what they wrote applies to Jesus. It is irrelevant whether what they wrote is reliable or accurate; it is what they wrote. We can test what they wrote to see if what they wrote refers to Jesus.
It really is that simple.
Oh, I am quite serious and asserting that inspiration does not matter, when you have no reason to believe that those writers are reliable in the first place makes no logical sense.
Yours, is a fallacy of the worst order.
I have asked you a question and asked you to give an example numerous times now and you simply refuse to answer it
Here it is again. Give me an example of something the prophets said of a miraculous or non-miraculous nature, that you can trust and why you trust it
Heres the extention of that challenge.
Give me an example of something that one of the prophets said, that does not apply to Christ
This should be simple enough, correct?
You made a claim, we can examine that claim.
Unfortunately, you dont understand how evidence or the scriptures are understood, not to mention critical thinking
Frankly Dawn, folk can read the posts in this thread and honestly, your arguments are as weak and pitiful as the god you try to market.
Yeah, Ive heard all of your catchy phrases through the months
Now, just present the phrase from the prophet that is applicable to the argument, that you believe is reliable and that demonstrates that Christ was not the fulfillment
Why wont you do this?
Dawn Bertot
Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 318 by jar, posted 12-20-2010 8:29 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 321 by Coyote, posted 12-20-2010 11:50 PM Dawn Bertot has not replied
 Message 322 by Dr Adequate, posted 12-20-2010 11:56 PM Dawn Bertot has replied
 Message 324 by jar, posted 12-21-2010 9:31 AM Dawn Bertot has replied

  
Dawn Bertot
Member (Idle past 196 days)
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


(1)
Message 328 of 566 (597442)
12-21-2010 6:17 PM
Reply to: Message 322 by Dr Adequate
12-20-2010 11:56 PM


Re: How to test Dawn Bertot's writings.
Micah 5 "Marshal your troops, O city of troops,a
for a siege is laid against us.
They will strike Israel’s ruler
on the cheek with a rod.
2But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah,
though you are small among the clansb of Judah,
out of you will come for me
one who will be ruler over Israel,
whose originsc are from of old,
from ancient times.d
3Therefore Israel will be abandoned
until the time when she who is in labor gives birth
and the rest of his brothers return
to join the Israelites.
4He will stand and shepherd his flock
in the strength of the Lord,
in the majesty of the name of the Lord his God.
And they will live securely, for then his greatness
will reach to the ends of the earth.
5And he will be their peace.
Deliverance and Destruction
When the Assyrian invades our land
and marches through our fortresses,
we will raise against him seven shepherds,
even eight leaders of men. "
Wow it is so cool that you chose this prophecy. This one nails not only the fact that Christ is the only fulfilment, but as the NT teaches, he would be one whos goings out and comings in are from everlasting
Christ is God.
Its not only a dual passage about those current events, but it establishes in both instances that it is God THAT IS the deliverer, WHETHER THEN OR NOW
Absolutely amazing. Its all about God whether then, at the time of the Christ, or now
Once you understand the nature and purpose of scripture, you will understand that is and always will be just about God
the theme never changed between the OlT and the New. God as deliever, whether in a physical way or a spiritual one
I cant thank you enough for providing that one
Dawn Bertot
Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.
Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 322 by Dr Adequate, posted 12-20-2010 11:56 PM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 330 by Coragyps, posted 12-21-2010 6:41 PM Dawn Bertot has replied
 Message 347 by Dr Adequate, posted 12-21-2010 7:51 PM Dawn Bertot has replied

  
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