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Author | Topic: Faith healing:proof of god, or placebo effect? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
frako Member (Idle past 326 days) Posts: 2932 From: slovenija Joined: |
Praying for the health of strangers who have undergone heart surgery has no effect, according to the largest scientific study ever commissioned to calculate the healing power of prayer. In fact, patients who know they are being prayed for suffer a noticeably higher rate of complications, according to the study, which monitored the recovery of 1,800 patients after heart bypass surgery in the US. The Times & The Sunday Times Prayer seems to have an opposite effect lol My guess is prayer has no effect at all or maybe a placebo effect if the one who is being prayed fore is really devout, and he knows he is being prayed fore. This study actually showed a bad effect from prayer 5% more of the people that knew they where being prayed fore developed complications tough this could be attributed to the fact that no 2 persons are the same and had the exacts same hart problem. My guess is if the number of patients used in the study was larger the numbers would be roughly the same. Edited by frako, : No reason given.
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Kairyu Member Posts: 162 From: netherlands Joined: |
I have read some information about the placebo effect on wikipedia, and I heard some bits about scientific research. This isn't much, and I have poor understanding of it, hence why I stirred up debate.
With ''astounding'' I meant that there's often a strong positive or negative effect when somebody believes in something. I was not talking about placebo going against the laws of nature, that would be science-fiction indeed. Once of the reasons I was confused by faith healing, is that alleged healing sometimes seems to go against what is normally possible.Still, if you don't overestimate the effect of placebo, you can use it for positive means. Even when it stays within nature, it can still be astounding.
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Dogmafood Member (Idle past 369 days) Posts: 1815 From: Ontario Canada Joined: |
Still, if you don't overestimate the effect of placebo, you can use it for positive means. Even when it stays within nature, it can still be astounding. So if one's belief in God is the trigger for the placebo effect is this not evidence of the existence and ability of God? Granted it doesn't look like omnipotence but at least it's a start.
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Kairyu Member Posts: 162 From: netherlands Joined: |
You could say that, but placebo also work for other religions, and non-religious matters.
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lyx2no Member (Idle past 4736 days) Posts: 1277 From: A vast, undifferentiated plane. Joined: |
With ''astounding'' I meant that there's often a strong positive or negative effect when somebody believes in something. Differences in attitude among individuals aren't at odds with experience. All people have aches and pains. Some shrug it off immediately while others whine perennially; those who complain until something gets done, and those who just get tired of complaining and get on about their business. When I go out into a November snow I'm a misery to behold; whereas, my sister dances in it. Yet we both react pretty much the same way to a February snow. A positive and a negative effect both caused by the time tested placebo Getoverit®. What reason is there to ascribe the placebo effect to anything more than an attitude adjustment: a known, non-astounding effect?
Once of the reasons I was confused by faith healing, is that alleged healing sometimes seems to go against what is normally possible. What is alleged goes against what is normally possible, what is possible, and often what we'd want to be possible. But if we stick to confirmed cases of 'healing' "seems" is the operative word. One artifact of the human cognitive process is that the extra attention we pay an unexpected event is attributed to the event. We should never be surprised by what surprises us.
Even when it stays within nature, it can still be astounding. Mind over matter would be astounding, mind over mind not so much. When cometh the day We lowly ones Through quiet reflection And great dedication Master the art of karate Lo, we shall rise up And then we'll make The bugger's eyes water Roger Waters
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lyx2no Member (Idle past 4736 days) Posts: 1277 From: A vast, undifferentiated plane. Joined: |
I am reminded of a documentary about recovering heroin addicts who were able to slake their desire to fix simply by going through the motions of fixing without injecting anything. I'd bet a dime for donuts that "slake" is about a gazillion times too strong of a word for the case. That it might ease the desire some I have little doubt. People fill their lives with events called habits. When we skip one of our habits we have a bit of time that we don't know what to do. This causes angst. It's one of the reasons that convention and ritual is such a strong force in society. Retaining the rituals of drug dependence while eliminating the drug is fixing one problem at a time.
I think the placebo effect is strong evidence of the power of the mind and the effects of attitude, as has been mentioned. Have you anything to show that the change in attitude isn't the entirety of the effect?
I don't think anecdotal evidence should be dismissed out of hand. I don't think anecdotal evidence should be accepted out of hand.
Draw no conclusions but investigate the lead. Hear here!
Anecdotally, I have personally watched people wish themselves to death. "I think I can. I think I can. I arrgh!" I'm betting you've more of a surmise then an observation.
Wouldn't that be supporting evidence for the efficacy of desire? Yes it would: conformatory bias.
I bet we couldn't find a doctor who would not agree that a patients will to be healthy is a critical factor impacting on the patients health. I bet I could. I bet I could find a doctor that would agree that brain tides cause lunacy. Let's up the standards of evidence a wee bit.
So, in a sense, the patient's faith that they will be healthy is a very real element to consider. I agree. But in what sense? When cometh the day We lowly ones Through quiet reflection And great dedication Master the art of karate Lo, we shall rise up And then we'll make The bugger's eyes water Roger Waters
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Dogmafood Member (Idle past 369 days) Posts: 1815 From: Ontario Canada Joined: |
Have you anything to show that the change in attitude isn't the entirety of the effect? Am I misunderstanding you? It is the attitude that causes the real effect that shows up in so much double blind placebo controlled research. I am saying that the attitude causes the effect entirely and that the attitude is created in the mind of the patient. Much like God is created in the mind. If a real effect can be produced by the mind then perhaps so can a real god (of sorts).
Wouldn't that be supporting evidence for the efficacy of desire? Yes it would: conformatory bias. Necessarily?
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lyx2no Member (Idle past 4736 days) Posts: 1277 From: A vast, undifferentiated plane. Joined:
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What real effect? What evidence it there that the patient ⇛is⇚ better? That the patient reports that they feel better? To be sure I'm better off with a broken arm and a smile than I am with a broken arm and a frown, but I still have a broken arm. Do bones knit faster when we have a better attitude, or is attitude better when we have a better attitude? Paint me blas.
Necessarily? No. Got a lab report where grinning reduces BUN? When cometh the day We lowly ones Through quiet reflection And great dedication Master the art of karate Lo, we shall rise up And then we'll make The bugger's eyes water Roger Waters
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Omnivorous Member Posts: 3983 From: Adirondackia Joined: Member Rating: 7.0 |
quote: I don't think the psychological impact of a faith healing or an intense will to live is going to reconnect a severed spine or regrow a limb, OK? You can let that poor horse move on to the other side. I do believe that the mind's impact on the body can have significant impacts on health and healing. Is that what you are denying? I'd have thought that the placebo effect and the phenomena of psychosomatic illness would already suggest otherwise. I do understand that you want more than just data showing an improvement in a patient's subjective evaluation of symptoms. To start, I'll cite some studies where optimism retards the progression of organic disease. I apologize for lacking access to the journals online.
quote: An article at WebMD summarizes the results of the second study:
quote: After several hours of searching, I find that few studies have been conducted on the issue. The difficulty of doing any kind of double-blind study is apparent, and the inability of physicians actively to control the patient's attitude, perhaps, makes the subject of limited clinical interest. However, a study of lung cancer patients in Australia yielded negative results on a correlation between positive attitudes and outcomes. Still, it was a small study (179 patients), and addressed a disease with nearly 100% mortality at five years out: 8 patients were still living, and their attitude rating showed no correlation with their survival. It seems odd to me to do such a study when the nearly 100% mortality leaves little room for a patient mind-body effect.
Do bones knit faster when we have a better attitude, or is attitude better when we have a better attitude? Paint me blas. Perhaps we can just paint you wrong.
Why, yes, we have evidence of the power of the mind to accelerate bone fracture healing:
quote: The superior outcome for non-depressed patients of all kinds is so well documented I'm not going to offer citations: I'm sure your own research into the matter has already discovered them. Finally, I'll add just a few general observations. We know that the conscious mind can deliberately raise or lower blood pressure, increase blood flow to particular areas, raise or lower body temperature, and, as noted above, accelerate healing of fractures and retard the progression of organic disease.
Got a lab report where grinning reduces BUN? Can the mind have an impact on kidney function? I dunno, I weighed your flippancy and didn't look for any data on that one. But I'd say that the ability to influence general metabolism and blood flow to particular regions of the body makes it possible. It's more than fine to be skeptical; it's essential. It's also lots of fun to express your skepticism with dismissive humor--I know, because I do that, too. It's a shame you didn't look for or cite any evidence one way or the other, though--and I thought you like2know! Mockery is more tasty with a garnish of information. Isn't dismissing a hypothesis for which there is, indeed, some evidence, merely a biased denial? Dost thou think, because thou art virtuous, there shall be no more cakes and ale? -Shakespeare Real things always push back.-William James
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Dogmafood Member (Idle past 369 days) Posts: 1815 From: Ontario Canada Joined: |
Do bones knit faster when we have a better attitude, or is attitude better when we have a better attitude? Here is a good study that helps define the effect.
quote: quote: With regard to the issue of anecdotal information. It is those things that protrude from the undifferentiated plane that command our attention.
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Panda Member (Idle past 3733 days) Posts: 2688 From: UK Joined: |
lyx2no writes:
A couple of years ago I read a report on a small test group that were taught to consciously affect renal function. Got a lab report where grinning reduces BUN?Using biofeedback they learned to control their kidneys in a certain way. As part of the 'trial and error' aspect of biofeedback, they were told to try different expressions. I don't remember if grinning was effective. Unfortunately I cannot remember any more detail and I am unable find that report.
But here is a list of other tests/treatments using biofeedback.quote:The treated conditions are quite varied, but they include epilepsy, stroke, high blood pressure, etc. I think biofeedback could be considered a 'bridge' between psychosomatic/placebo healing and conscious/intentional healing.
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Solomon18 Junior Member (Idle past 4319 days) Posts: 4 Joined: |
Although Placebo Effect is truly powerful enough to help patients recover faster,
I have never seen any scientific evidene of placebo effect showing that big effect size. I'd like to say that placebo effect is not that big enough to miraculously improve patients in all experiments I am aware of. Why don't you think the possibility that it's a work of Satan? I personally believe that there exists the true God, and YHWH is a Satan against the real God, or Creator. The Satans heal many believes so the believers continuously have false belief. When scientifically thinking, we can have really many alternative explanations for the healing results. I'm glad you came out of the box Christanity has made.
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Larni Member (Idle past 184 days) Posts: 4000 From: Liverpool Joined: |
Well, if your satan could have healed my grand father I'd have voted for him.
Guess what happened?
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Panda Member (Idle past 3733 days) Posts: 2688 From: UK Joined: |
Solomon18 writes:
Firstly: "big effect size" is so vague it becomes meaningless. Although Placebo Effect is truly powerful enough to help patients recover faster,I have never seen any scientific evidene of placebo effect showing that big effect size. I'd like to say that placebo effect is not that big enough to miraculously improve patients in all experiments I am aware of. Secondly: Argument from self-knowing.
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Kairyu Member Posts: 162 From: netherlands Joined: |
Eh, I can't work out for sure if you're a atheist or a Christian. Judging by the last part.
The Satan argument seems a panic button for me. I don't like fear arguments, especially when directed at people who don't have the knowledge to rebuke it. Besides, there's enough non-religious placebo, not to mention minor placebo, to rule out supernatural influences as the only possible cause. And the biggest healings are always seem rare cases of a recovery, that got blown up because praying was involved, or a story that, as said before, are mostly ''from a friend from a friend''. I'm personally trying to gather information about placebo, and that evidence healings have naturalistic causes in this topic. Edited by WSW24, : error in last sentence
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