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Author Topic:   Size of the universe
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 61 of 248 (598278)
12-29-2010 10:18 PM
Reply to: Message 59 by DrJones*
12-29-2010 9:38 PM


Re: Which Life Priory Most Probable?
Dr Jones, note the ABE which I added to my message.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 59 by DrJones*, posted 12-29-2010 9:38 PM DrJones* has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 62 by DrJones*, posted 12-29-2010 10:21 PM Buzsaw has responded

  
DrJones*
Member
Posts: 1805
From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 08-19-2004
Member Rating: 4.3


Message 62 of 248 (598279)
12-29-2010 10:21 PM
Reply to: Message 61 by Buzsaw
12-29-2010 10:18 PM


Re: Which Life Priory Most Probable?
What does that have to do with your claim that the math is incompatible with reality and my request that you show how the math is wrong?

Please show where the math is wrong, show your work.


It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds
soon I discovered that this rock thing was true
Jerry Lee Lewis was the devil
Jesus was an architect previous to his career as a prophet
All of a sudden i found myself in love with the world
And so there was only one thing I could do
Was ding a ding dang my dang along ling long - Jesus Built my Hotrod Ministry

Live every week like it's Shark Week! - Tracey Jordan
Just a monkey in a long line of kings. - Matthew Good
If "elitist" just means "not the dumbest motherfucker in the room", I'll be an elitist! - Get Your War On
*not an actual doctor
This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by Buzsaw, posted 12-29-2010 10:18 PM Buzsaw has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 63 by Buzsaw, posted 12-29-2010 10:50 PM DrJones* has responded

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 63 of 248 (598281)
12-29-2010 10:50 PM
Reply to: Message 62 by DrJones*
12-29-2010 10:21 PM


Re: Which Life Priory Most Probable?
Dr jones writes:

What does that have to do with your claim that the math is incompatible with reality and my request that you show how the math is wrong?

I was merely evaluating the priori and the conclusions of the math relative to which life meaning priory and conclusion is the more plausible one realistically.

Methinks Admin Moose is already getting antsy about topic. It's time to move on.


BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The Immeasurable Present Eternally Extends the Infinite Past And Infinitely Consumes The Eternal Future.
Time Relates To What Is Temperal. What Is Eternal Is Timeless.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by DrJones*, posted 12-29-2010 10:21 PM DrJones* has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 64 by DrJones*, posted 12-29-2010 10:55 PM Buzsaw has not yet responded

  
DrJones*
Member
Posts: 1805
From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 08-19-2004
Member Rating: 4.3


Message 64 of 248 (598282)
12-29-2010 10:55 PM
Reply to: Message 63 by Buzsaw
12-29-2010 10:50 PM


Re: Which Life Priory Most Probable?
I was merely evaluating the priori and the conclusions of the math relative to which life meaning priory and conclusion is the more plausible one realistically

So you're unable to substantiate your claim:

There comes a time when the math and reality become incompatible beyond imagination

It's time to move on.

Run along then Buz, rest assured we recognize that you've been beaten even when you don't.


It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds
soon I discovered that this rock thing was true
Jerry Lee Lewis was the devil
Jesus was an architect previous to his career as a prophet
All of a sudden i found myself in love with the world
And so there was only one thing I could do
Was ding a ding dang my dang along ling long - Jesus Built my Hotrod Ministry

Live every week like it's Shark Week! - Tracey Jordan
Just a monkey in a long line of kings. - Matthew Good
If "elitist" just means "not the dumbest motherfucker in the room", I'll be an elitist! - Get Your War On
*not an actual doctor
This message is a reply to:
 Message 63 by Buzsaw, posted 12-29-2010 10:50 PM Buzsaw has not yet responded

  
Philip Johnson
Junior Member (Idle past 2909 days)
Posts: 24
Joined: 12-29-2010


Message 65 of 248 (598314)
12-30-2010 9:49 AM
Reply to: Message 55 by jar
12-29-2010 6:51 PM


Re: Young or old universe
I wrote: "Do you believe it was 50+ billion light years in size within a second after the Big Bang?"

jar wrote: "No idea, but that simply has no meaning anyway."

How can you say that question has no meaning. Cosmological Inflation (that the universe expanded to 75% of its current size within a split second of the Big Bang) was conceived to try to answer the classic conundrum of the Big Bang cosmology: why does the universe appear flat, homogeneous and isotropic in accordance with the cosmological principle when one would expect, on the basis of the physics of the Big Bang, a highly curved, heterogeneous universe? Inflation also explains the origin of the large-scale structure of the cosmos.

Do you believe in the Big Bang Theory without Inflation, the Big Bang Theory with Inflation, or some other theory concerning the formation of the universe?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by jar, posted 12-29-2010 6:51 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 66 by jar, posted 12-30-2010 9:59 AM Philip Johnson has responded
 Message 69 by cavediver, posted 12-30-2010 11:12 AM Philip Johnson has not yet responded
 Message 70 by Theodoric, posted 12-30-2010 3:54 PM Philip Johnson has not yet responded

    
jar
Member
Posts: 30934
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 66 of 248 (598316)
12-30-2010 9:59 AM
Reply to: Message 65 by Philip Johnson
12-30-2010 9:49 AM


Re: Young or old universe
How can you say that question has no meaning. Cosmological Inflation (that the universe expanded to 75% of its current size within a split second of the Big Bang) was conceived to try to answer the classic conundrum of the Big Bang cosmology: why does the universe appear flat, homogeneous and isotropic in accordance with the cosmological principle when one would expect, on the basis of the physics of the Big Bang, a highly curved, heterogeneous universe? Inflation also explains the origin of the large-scale structure of the cosmos.

Do you believe in the Big Bang Theory without Inflation, the Big Bang Theory with Inflation, or some other theory concerning the formation of the universe?

I say it has no meaning because you have not yet explained what you mean by this Universe.

How do you measure size before there is something to measure?


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by Philip Johnson, posted 12-30-2010 9:49 AM Philip Johnson has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 67 by Philip Johnson, posted 12-30-2010 10:09 AM jar has responded

  
Philip Johnson
Junior Member (Idle past 2909 days)
Posts: 24
Joined: 12-29-2010


Message 67 of 248 (598318)
12-30-2010 10:09 AM
Reply to: Message 66 by jar
12-30-2010 9:59 AM


Re: Young or old universe
I wrote: "Do you believe in the Big Bang Theory without Inflation, the Big Bang Theory with Inflation, or some other theory concerning the formation of the universe?"

jar wrote: "I say it has no meaning because you have not yet explained what you mean by this Universe."

The word "universe" is commonly defined as the totality of all physical matter and energy.

So, do you believe in the Big Bang Theory without Inflation, the Big Bang Theory with Inflation, or some other theory concerning the formation of all physical matter and energy?"


This message is a reply to:
 Message 66 by jar, posted 12-30-2010 9:59 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 68 by jar, posted 12-30-2010 10:18 AM Philip Johnson has not yet responded
 Message 73 by Percy, posted 01-01-2011 8:56 AM Philip Johnson has responded

    
jar
Member
Posts: 30934
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 68 of 248 (598321)
12-30-2010 10:18 AM
Reply to: Message 67 by Philip Johnson
12-30-2010 10:09 AM


Re: Young or old universe
The word "universe" is commonly defined as the totality of all physical matter and energy.

Okay. Well there was no matter until sometime into the expansion and I'm not sure how to measure what was there before there was matter.

So, do you believe in the Big Bang Theory without Inflation, the Big Bang Theory with Inflation, or some other theory concerning the formation of all physical matter and energy?"

I don't believe in any of them. The evidence though seems to show inflation.

But again, how do you measure size before there is any matter?


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by Philip Johnson, posted 12-30-2010 10:09 AM Philip Johnson has not yet responded

  
cavediver
Member (Idle past 1718 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 69 of 248 (598330)
12-30-2010 11:12 AM
Reply to: Message 65 by Philip Johnson
12-30-2010 9:49 AM


Re: Young or old universe
Do you believe it was 50+ billion light years in size within a second after the Big Bang?

Where do you get this crap? The Observable Universe ended up with a radius of about *10cm* following inflation - nothing remarkable about that until you realise how quickly it achieved that size following the Big Bang itself.

As for the entire Universe, given that we have no idea how big it is, we have no idea how big it was prior to inflation nor post inflation. There is a good chance it is infinite, in which case it was the same size prior and post.

Hint: Jar is entirely correct in pointig out that what you are talking about has little to no meaning. Perhaps if you were to recast your question in terms of scale factors, we may be on to a winner. Consider it a small homework assignment.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by Philip Johnson, posted 12-30-2010 9:49 AM Philip Johnson has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 71 by Iblis, posted 12-31-2010 9:14 PM cavediver has responded

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 5953
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 70 of 248 (598391)
12-30-2010 3:54 PM
Reply to: Message 65 by Philip Johnson
12-30-2010 9:49 AM


Your source please
Do you believe it was 50+ billion light years in size within a second after the Big Bang?

Cavediver says this is crap and I will believe him well before you. I have been trying to research this , but I can find nothing that agrees with this statement.

Where did you come up with this? Please give us the fundie site you got this from.

Now like Jar, I, as I am sure others, have an issue with your use of the word believe. The science, reality, minded people don't have the belief you claim they do. As Jar stated, the evidence supports inflation.

You, like many fundies, feel a need to conflate religious belief with scientific knowledge. They are not the same thing. No matter how much you want to claim it is so, it is not.


Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by Philip Johnson, posted 12-30-2010 9:49 AM Philip Johnson has not yet responded

    
Iblis
Member (Idle past 1970 days)
Posts: 663
Joined: 11-17-2005


Message 71 of 248 (598529)
12-31-2010 9:14 PM
Reply to: Message 69 by cavediver
12-30-2010 11:12 AM


Re: Young or old universe
quote:
The Observable Universe ended up with a radius of about *10cm* following inflation

Can you give more info on this, or point me to some? The last time I walked through this, the earliest figure after inflation I have for the OU is 3-5 billion light years. This ten centimeters is making me horny for some book larnin again.

Phillip's still profoundly wrong, regardless. But that shouldn't keep us from getting something out of this conv should it?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by cavediver, posted 12-30-2010 11:12 AM cavediver has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 72 by cavediver, posted 01-01-2011 5:52 AM Iblis has not yet responded

  
cavediver
Member (Idle past 1718 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 72 of 248 (598542)
01-01-2011 5:52 AM
Reply to: Message 71 by Iblis
12-31-2010 9:14 PM


Re: Young or old universe
The last time I walked through this, the earliest figure after inflation I have for the OU is 3-5 billion light years.

Sure, this is about a second after inflation - looking back on my post I realise I quoted the wrong part of Philip's posts, and I was trying to point out that inflation in no way resulted in a "universe" that big.

Here's a useful, if somewhat loose diagram:

Source: here

As you can see, inflation leaves the Observable Universe with a radius of around 100m, at a time of around 10-33s. At around 1 sec, the radius has *slowly* increased to around 1020m, which is about 10,000 lyrs.

Again, talking about physical distance is largely meaningless and renders the effect of inflation essentially invisiblle. We need to talk about scale factors to appreciate what is going on.

Edited by cavediver, : No reason given.

Edited by Admin, : Fix image link.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by Iblis, posted 12-31-2010 9:14 PM Iblis has not yet responded

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 18308
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 73 of 248 (598545)
01-01-2011 8:56 AM
Reply to: Message 67 by Philip Johnson
12-30-2010 10:09 AM


Re: Young or old universe
Hi Philip,

Since the diameter of the observable universe grew from effectively 0 light years about 13.7 billion years to about 93 billion light years today, there must have been a time when its size was the same as whatever size Biblical literalists want to claim for it. And you want to characterize this mathematical necessity as a point of agreement between science and Biblical literalism?

There *are* some actual points of agreement between astronomy and Biblical literalists. For example, the Bible says the Earth has a sun and a moon, and astronomers agree. The Bible notes that there are stars, and astronomers agree.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by Philip Johnson, posted 12-30-2010 10:09 AM Philip Johnson has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 74 by ProtoTypical, posted 01-01-2011 11:00 AM Percy has acknowledged this reply
 Message 75 by Philip Johnson, posted 01-01-2011 6:26 PM Percy has responded
 Message 237 by kofh2u, posted 12-01-2012 9:26 AM Percy has responded

    
ProtoTypical
Member
Posts: 1774
From: Ontario Canada
Joined: 08-04-2010


Message 74 of 248 (598556)
01-01-2011 11:00 AM
Reply to: Message 73 by Percy
01-01-2011 8:56 AM


Re: Young or old universe
"Even a broken clock is right twice a day."
This message is a reply to:
 Message 73 by Percy, posted 01-01-2011 8:56 AM Percy has acknowledged this reply

  
Philip Johnson
Junior Member (Idle past 2909 days)
Posts: 24
Joined: 12-29-2010


Message 75 of 248 (598669)
01-01-2011 6:26 PM
Reply to: Message 73 by Percy
01-01-2011 8:56 AM


Re: Young or old universe
Percy wrote: "Since the diameter of the observable universe grew from effectively 0 light years about 13.7 billion years to about 93 billion light years today."

Are you of the opinion that nothing can go faster than the speed of light? Is the radius of the universe increasing by at most 1 light year every year since nothing can go faster than the speed of light?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 73 by Percy, posted 01-01-2011 8:56 AM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 76 by Iblis, posted 01-01-2011 6:37 PM Philip Johnson has not yet responded
 Message 77 by Percy, posted 01-02-2011 7:35 AM Philip Johnson has not yet responded

    
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