Faith healing:proof of god, or placebo effect?

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I am reminded of a documentary about recovering heroin addicts who were able to slake their desire to fix simply by going through the motions of fixing without injecting anything.I think the placebo effect is strong evidence of the power of the mind and the effects of attitude, as has been mentioned. I don't think anecdotal evidence should be dismissed out of hand. Draw no conclusions but investigate the lead. Anecdotally, I have personally watched people wish themselves to death. Wouldn't that be supporting evidence for the efficacy of desire?I bet we couldn't find a doctor who would not agree that a patients will to be healthy is a critical factor impacting on the patients health. So, in a sense, the patient's faith that they will be healthy is a very real element to consider.

So if one's belief in God is the trigger for the placebo effect is this not evidence of the existence and ability of God? Granted it doesn't look like omnipotence but at least it's a start.

Am I misunderstanding you? It is the attitude that causes the real effect that shows up in so much double blind placebo controlled research. I am saying that the attitude causes the effect entirely and that the attitude is created in the mind of the patient. Much like God is created in the mind. If a real effect can be produced by the mind then perhaps so can a real god (of sorts). Necessarily?

Here is a good study that helps define the effect.

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The explorative analysis revealed that significant placebo effects were predominantly found for parameters measuring physical processes, e.g., blood pressure, or forced expiratory volume in 1 second (FEV1). Therefore, all types of physical outcome parameters were collected in one class, which was named "physical parameters". The remaining parameters, less frequently responding to placebo treatments, appeared to represent biochemical processes measured in peripheral body fluids and tissues, e.g., cholesterol and cortisol. Therefore, they were all taken together in one alternative class, which was named "biochemical parameters". To be more precise, 8 of 16 trials (50%) using physical parameters as outcomes reported significant placebo effects compared with only 1 of 18 trials (6%) using biochemical parameters. This difference was statistically significant (Fisher's exact probability test, P < 0.01).

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In this study, we were able to identify different kinds of peripheral outcome parameters as one reason for the heterogeneity of placebo effects on observer-reported outcomes. The differential placebo responsiveness of physical versus biochemical parameters should be taken into account when designing future pharmacological studies. A question that ties in with the present results concerns the putative specificity of placebo effects. Depending on the type of disease (e.g., psychiatric, neurological, internal), on the information delivered to the patient, and on the patient's former experiences with treatments, the effects of placebo interventions may differ, and different mechanisms may be involved. To disentangle the specific components of placebo treatments under different circumstances and to work out their effects represents a major challenge for future placebo research.

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With regard to the issue of anecdotal information. It is those things that protrude from the undifferentiated plane that command our attention.

It most certainly is there but there is nothing miraculous going on. A placebo is simply a trigger that stimulates the brain into action. Medicine is an assistant to the body right? It is the body that does the healing and the brain controls the body (at least parts of it in my case). The brain can stimulate or repress the immune system. Your brain can produce enough adrenaline to kill you. Take a look at this list of the effects of laughter. Perhaps because it has been considered in the same light. It should be thoroughly investigated, dissected, understood and then amplified.It would not surprise me too much if our brains are capable of a great deal more control over our bodies than we currently employ. Of course, I am just a layman and all my evidence is anecdotal.

Not to me. I do not believe in magic. It does not exist as such. The words super natural and magic mean, to me, unexplained. If I see something that I can not explain I do not assume that it is magic. I am getting accustomed to not knowing why things are happening . Upon further investigation, most things, so far, have happened for a reason. I have no reason to believe that this trend will not continue.As information recedes from the personal the probability of corruption increases. When I look at a video like this I am at a loss. I have a high regard for Bill Moyers and his history of credibility. What are we to make of the apparent contradictions in the video with the natural laws as we understand them? Why didn't Bill jump in there and try to flip the guy over? I don't know. What if you tried to do it and could not? Would it be valid information at that point?

I don't know if anyone is still interested in this conversation but it has stuck with me the last couple days. I am in partial agreement with you but not altogether. I take your point but...there is no magic. We either understand something or we do not or it didn’t actually happen.I found the rest of the video with the Jedi master guy. It runs for an hour but adds an essential context if you are interested. Of much greater interest is when they show an operation to remove a brain tumour (about the 12 min mark). They use a combination of acupuncture and drugs to anaesthetize the patient. The interesting thing is that they only use 50% of the drugs that they would use in a western hospital. This seems to be a rather substantial effect to be caused by something that does not exist. Electromagnetic field? Dark energy? Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence as the saying goes. This belief has been held by millions of people for 2500 yrs or so. I am aware of the fallacy of popularity but why is there such a lack of PCDBC trials? We have certainly researched alot of other things that seem to only exist in peoples minds. This is true but how long did it take life to adopt it? Antibiotics existed long before we utilized them. How did the learned medical community first react to the idea of keeping the hospital clean? Perhaps this is the manifestation of our brains reacting to something that is there. Apparently just below your navel. {ABE; or in your case, just above your brain }Edited by Dogmafood, : No reason given.

Ahhh...narcotics. Attitude with horsepower.Be well.

Yes. I had heard that. I wasn’t so sure about the exact procedure used to remove a brain tumour. It turns out that do actually use some drugs. When they use acupuncture they use about half the quantity of drugs. Seems like something when compared to nothing.Here is an example from National Center for Biotechnology InformationThis looks like it is from Colorado State but I am not sure.You must be gifted to spot all us mouth breathers from so far away. I may be mistaken about what I am seeing but you have provided nothing other than a belief to the contrary.

Something as opposed to not something. There is an indication that the acupuncture is having an effect. Why is that? They use less drugs. Why is that? What? One of us is blithering. So we are in agreement. There is some tangible effect caused by acupuncture. If we had to bore into your skull to remove the tumour would you prefer acupuncture or a caveman with a sharp stone? What consequences phage0070? Not only have you not refuted what I have said you have agreed that there is some effect caused by acupuncture. What is the real world mechanism that allows this to happen?

Whilst your scathing rebuke is amusing might I suggest that you mix it up a little. Maybe a bit more cow bell.In the interest of brevity lets skip down to the take away points. Yes of course professor, even my brother/cousin Cletis understands that. I am not sure where you got the idea that I did not. Perhaps from one of your many assumptions.I am pointing to the fact that fewer drugs are being used. You are saying that the surgeons are just using fewer drugs and the patient is not getting the equivalent relief. OK, sounds possible to me. I really don’t know how likely that is. You have only offered it as your opinion. Do the surgeons just tell them to suck it up? Is the patient duped into enduring the procedure by sticking needles in their toes? Or is there no pain to begin with? Should we ignore the fact that they are using fewer drugs? What is going on here Phage0070? Is it like substituting derision for information while attempting to communicate?What would a good study look like and who would it come from if all the people with brains have already decided that there is nothing to study? I bet you would make a good subject for acupuncture trials. What with your shrewd intelligence and admirable objectivity. You could volunteer. Just the thought of someone sticking needles into you makes me smile. And you know how when you smile you feel better? Of course maybe we only smile when we feel better. Oops...what am I thinking. The behaviour and effect probably are not even related. My evidence is really only anecdotal. In fact, I may not even actually feel better.It seems to me that what you are railing about is not related to anything that I have actually said. However, you may rest assured that I take your point about making false associations.Perhaps this little anecdote is something you can relate to.Bacteriophages were first suspected in 1896. The first regulated clinical trial of efficacy in Western Europe (against ear infections caused by Pseudomonas aeruginosa) was reported in the journal Clinical Otolaryngology in August 2009. sourceAny chance that the same sort of delay is happening with regard to acupuncture.Surely someone as intelligent as yourself can do better than arrogant dismissal. You remind of one of those people who reads a book and then carries on as if they wrote it.Anyway, I have bored a little hole in my helmet of ignorance. Perhaps my stupid can drain out.

You know, Phage0070, if you could deflate your ego long enough to see past it, you would notice that I am highly skeptical regarding the whole idea of qi. If you held yourself to the same exacting standards of honesty you would acknowledge that my actual position could be summarized as ‘What’s going on here?’ We don’t have to backtrack far, only to the point where we understand each other. I see how your understanding of my assertion that There is an indication that the acupuncture is having an effect." is wrong in the context of everything else that I have said. I see also how I could have said it differently.I also said This is a much stronger statement and is also wrong. If you were paying attention you would have noticed that.You are absolutely correct to point out the fact that the fact that they use fewer drugs is not necessarily caused by the acupuncture. The people who do this type of thing ARE saying that it is caused by the acupuncture. What ‘real’ world explanation do you have?Your super-sphinctered mind is good at pointing out what we don’t know. What do we know?Why are they able to use fewer drugs?I am far more interested in what is right as opposed to who is right.