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Author Topic:   Can a valid, supportable reason be offered for deconversion
Dawn Bertot
Member (Idle past 201 days)
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


(1)
Message 455 of 566 (598706)
01-01-2011 10:35 PM
Reply to: Message 452 by dwise1
01-01-2011 10:04 PM


Re: other scriptures
Name the one or two specific philosophical reasons why somebody enlists in the military. Or re-enlists
there are no philosophical reasons, didnt you see stripes, moron
"Traaaainnnng Siiiiiiir"
Dont you remember francis? he was psychotic. "You touch any of my things Ill kill you". Any of you H...s touch me ill kill you" "Any of you guys call me francis, ill kill ya'
"Lighten up Francis", Sergeant Hulka
Since you are obviously not interested in the reasons for deconversion, then could you please come clean and admit what you are after? Your little farce has gone on for far too long.
son, you simply dont understand the reasoning process and you have missed the point of the thread.
A valid logical argument set out in logical form, is all I was looking for, not all this rehtoric you are putting forward
Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.
Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 452 by dwise1, posted 01-01-2011 10:04 PM dwise1 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 456 by jar, posted 01-01-2011 10:40 PM Dawn Bertot has not replied
 Message 458 by dwise1, posted 01-01-2011 11:11 PM Dawn Bertot has replied

  
Dawn Bertot
Member (Idle past 201 days)
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


(1)
Message 463 of 566 (598728)
01-02-2011 2:31 AM
Reply to: Message 458 by dwise1
01-01-2011 11:11 PM


Re: other scriptures
Don't you ever understand anything?
You're not looking for reasons for deconversion. What it looks like is that you believe that you have an invincibly perfect theology and you want to show it off by having it deflect everything we could throw at it. Your earlier lie (Message 199) seems to have been caused in part by your own confusion. You were trying to put on the pretense of asking why anybody would deconvert, but you kept asking for reasons for you personally to deconvert. I think that latter is what you were really looking for. Like you were daring us to knock you off your perch. Stupid!
Enough of your stupid games! Come clean!
Thats funny, I must be lying because I disagree with you. That says alot about your personality
Are you mad because I disagree with your conclusions. I honestly and firmly believe no argument has been presented in logical presentation, the conclusion of which is irrefutable, that would and should cause a person to deconvert
As I pointed out earlier, most people that deconvert dont have a firm foundation, they dont even understand basics, so the slightest wind would uproot thier shallow roots system
I dont see why you cant just stick with the argument, you insist on making 3/4s of your posts personal attacks and insults.
Honestly they are not worth reading. it like trying to dodge punches, while Im trying to conduct buisness
If you are still IN, perhaps anger management classes are in order. Dude, let that part of it go.
In 45 years of this it hasnt phased me, you must understand it wont at this point
Dawn Bertot
Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 458 by dwise1, posted 01-01-2011 11:11 PM dwise1 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 465 by dwise1, posted 01-02-2011 2:36 AM Dawn Bertot has not replied
 Message 472 by Dr Adequate, posted 01-02-2011 2:59 AM Dawn Bertot has replied
 Message 500 by dwise1, posted 01-02-2011 4:56 AM Dawn Bertot has replied

  
Dawn Bertot
Member (Idle past 201 days)
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


(1)
Message 464 of 566 (598729)
01-02-2011 2:36 AM
Reply to: Message 462 by dwise1
01-02-2011 2:29 AM


Re: What does Christian Doctrine say ... ?
ICANT, I have a question. It would likely seem off-topic, but then Dawn himself has pulled this topic off-topic so many times already.
What is Christian Doctrine on "lying for the Lord"?
I know you directed this at ICANT, but explain what it is you think I have lied about
personally I think you just get carried away with your emotions, dont really know how to respond to something, then attack people.
What have i lied about. PLEASE, FOR HEAVENS AND MY SAKE, NO LECTURES, (disoratations)just a few lines explaining this assertion
Dawn Bertot
Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 462 by dwise1, posted 01-02-2011 2:29 AM dwise1 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 467 by dwise1, posted 01-02-2011 2:39 AM Dawn Bertot has replied

  
Dawn Bertot
Member (Idle past 201 days)
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


Message 468 of 566 (598733)
01-02-2011 2:47 AM
Reply to: Message 466 by arachnophilia
01-02-2011 2:36 AM


Re: liars, or lied to?
in any case, you can pretty clearly see how dawn is doing that very thing in this thread. why else would a valid, supportable reason to "deconvert" have to be personal to dawn, such that we should convince him?
because its the rational way to proceed
let me help you here. Look at me as if you were looking and speaking with a Vulcan. No Im not delusional and think I actually am. Your reading into me deception and secret motives that dont exist. There is no emotion or deception here, Im just asking what can be presented in a logical fashion as to why one might deconvert.
Not who deconverted, not why you think they deconverted. Not who is lying and who is not. Simply the argument that swayed them to that position
If people have deconverted based on the reasons dewise suggest concerning creationism, then they did not understand what creation and its primary arguments were
you really need to let it go that I disagree, that is what debating is about, disagreement
just stick to the "argument"
Dawn Bertot

This message is a reply to:
 Message 466 by arachnophilia, posted 01-02-2011 2:36 AM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 475 by arachnophilia, posted 01-02-2011 3:09 AM Dawn Bertot has replied
 Message 482 by dwise1, posted 01-02-2011 3:35 AM Dawn Bertot has replied

  
Dawn Bertot
Member (Idle past 201 days)
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


(1)
Message 470 of 566 (598735)
01-02-2011 2:52 AM
Reply to: Message 467 by dwise1
01-02-2011 2:39 AM


Re: What does Christian Doctrine say ... ?
aw Jeebus! What a frakin' idiot!
Instead of sticking to the topic of the reasons for deconversion, you keep pulling it off into arguments over Isaiha and other arguments over prophecies and inspiration, etc. None of which has anything to do with deconversion.
Please get a frakin' clue!
Let me guess, your drinking right about this point arent you Son? be honest
Your right Son its not about Deconversion specifically, it ABOUT THE ARGUMENT ONE USES TO DECONVERT, which would include
the things we have been discussing
Please tell me your really not that ignorant, to not see that point
WoW. Be honest your smashed right now, arent you?
Dawn

This message is a reply to:
 Message 467 by dwise1, posted 01-02-2011 2:39 AM dwise1 has not replied

  
Dawn Bertot
Member (Idle past 201 days)
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


(1)
Message 471 of 566 (598736)
01-02-2011 2:56 AM
Reply to: Message 469 by arachnophilia
01-02-2011 2:51 AM


Re: What does Christian Doctrine say ... ?
which is the more moral course of action? generally, moral people, in this instance, will state that lying is perfectly okay. if it is to save your own life, or the lives of others, a lie is generally a small thing in comparison to the greater harm caused by the truth.
it is never right to lie, in any situation, it is a moral incorrectness, even in rahabs case.
I would lie in those situations to save another life, but my actions dont make it moral or right
If it did, anyone could justify any situation in thier own mind, in which case there would be no reason it would ever be wrong
Dawn Bertot
Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 469 by arachnophilia, posted 01-02-2011 2:51 AM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 476 by arachnophilia, posted 01-02-2011 3:11 AM Dawn Bertot has not replied

  
Dawn Bertot
Member (Idle past 201 days)
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


(1)
Message 473 of 566 (598738)
01-02-2011 3:01 AM
Reply to: Message 451 by dwise1
01-01-2011 9:53 PM


Re: other scriptures
You will also notice that one of the first things I tried to do in this topic was to call for agreeing to definitions of our terminology, including what is meant by deconversion.
So here you have tried to apply your own private definitions of the terminology being used. This might serve as an object lesson in the importance of agreeing upon terminology. Duh? But will you learn that lesson? Of course not! Your kind of dishonest dealings depends heavily on such semantic trickery and the confusion that it causes.
}
We all know what deconversion means dewise. Its not about the term specifically but the reason/s that anyone might offer, set out logically, to that deconversion
why is that so hard to understand?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 451 by dwise1, posted 01-01-2011 9:53 PM dwise1 has not replied

  
Dawn Bertot
Member (Idle past 201 days)
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


(1)
Message 474 of 566 (598739)
01-02-2011 3:07 AM
Reply to: Message 472 by Dr Adequate
01-02-2011 2:59 AM


Re: other scriptures
And yet you have produced a great deal of wind and not noticeably changed anyone's beliefs.
Maybe you should give up on the wind and try some arguments with substance.
Iano, Jaywill, Buzzsaw, John10, Bertot and last but certainly not least ICANT. Which of these peoples views have you or the other skeptics here, changed?
Disagreement doesnt equal misunderstanding.
Dawn Bertot
Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 472 by Dr Adequate, posted 01-02-2011 2:59 AM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 478 by arachnophilia, posted 01-02-2011 3:20 AM Dawn Bertot has not replied
 Message 496 by Dr Adequate, posted 01-02-2011 4:32 AM Dawn Bertot has not replied

  
Dawn Bertot
Member (Idle past 201 days)
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


(1)
Message 479 of 566 (598744)
01-02-2011 3:20 AM
Reply to: Message 475 by arachnophilia
01-02-2011 3:09 AM


Re: highly illogical
a priori assumptions about divine inspiration that have yet to be demonstrated and conflict with the given facts is highly illogical.
Wow you really dont get this do you? We were looking at the same text, which clearly included the example of inspiration as much as prophecy
Now according to your own rules, looking stickly at the text, how could i be ASSUME what is there and the rules you use to establish things just from the text
I did not assume inspiration any more than you assumed your interpretation of that text
from a biblical perspective, what known facts would inspiration conflict with in the Bible or Isa
What are you smoking dude
Dawn Bertot

This message is a reply to:
 Message 475 by arachnophilia, posted 01-02-2011 3:09 AM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 483 by arachnophilia, posted 01-02-2011 3:40 AM Dawn Bertot has replied

  
Dawn Bertot
Member (Idle past 201 days)
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


(1)
Message 481 of 566 (598746)
01-02-2011 3:31 AM
Reply to: Message 477 by dwise1
01-02-2011 3:13 AM


Re: liars, or lied to?
Yes, I do see that. I have often viewed fundamentalist Christian mentality as having been arrested. Eg, obviously, their rules-based morality, which is normally outgrown before age 10. There's another stage of development in which a child before a certain tender age, about 5 years I think, cannot distinguish between its own thoughts and the thoughts of
Yeah people diasagree with you for very good reasons in thier own minds and arguments, so there must be something wrong with them, correct?
These types of tactics only make you appear as biased and prejudiced before you actually present an argument for deconversion
None of that post you just gave has anything to do with the actual topic
Dawn Bertot

This message is a reply to:
 Message 477 by dwise1, posted 01-02-2011 3:13 AM dwise1 has not replied

  
Dawn Bertot
Member (Idle past 201 days)
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


(1)
Message 484 of 566 (598749)
01-02-2011 3:42 AM
Reply to: Message 482 by dwise1
01-02-2011 3:35 AM


Re: liars, or lied to?
Here's a stupid question: why are some theologies so harshly subject to deconversion while others are not? HINT: your own theology is very much subject to deconversion, as per the vast majority of the deconversion stories out there.
maybe because some one somewhere might be right, or is that not a possibility for you. That fact that you attack me personally because i hold to what I know to be true, because i have tried and tested it for nearly 45 years, simply aggrevates you
Your blinded by your hatred.
Try and stick with just the arguments
Dawn Bertot

This message is a reply to:
 Message 482 by dwise1, posted 01-02-2011 3:35 AM dwise1 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 487 by arachnophilia, posted 01-02-2011 3:49 AM Dawn Bertot has not replied
 Message 488 by dwise1, posted 01-02-2011 3:54 AM Dawn Bertot has not replied
 Message 492 by dwise1, posted 01-02-2011 4:02 AM Dawn Bertot has not replied

  
Dawn Bertot
Member (Idle past 201 days)
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


Message 489 of 566 (598754)
01-02-2011 3:55 AM
Reply to: Message 483 by arachnophilia
01-02-2011 3:40 AM


Re: highly illogical
it assumes the accuracy of the that person being quoted, which remains to be demonstrated by comparing it against factual claims, and
it assumes that the accuracy of the text in reporting what that person said
Really. Arch, this is what I have been arguing the whole time. I assumed we were speaking strickly from a biblical perspective. When I saw what you actually believed i manuvered it to the challenging you as to what you believed actually
we've been over this. i know you don't understand it, and i know that you won't understand it anytime soon. but your logic is circular. you assume your conclusion. the text is inspired because it says so. and we know what it says is true because it's inspired. keep chasing your tail.
My reasoning is not circular if the argument is based against another argument Biblically based. I thought we were discussing the two passages from the two books, with inspiration as a clear part of the text.
If inspiration is questionalbe then so is everything else and who cares, right?
That is where I thought we were at. if it is not then we start the discussion somewhere else
Dawn Bertot
Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.
Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 483 by arachnophilia, posted 01-02-2011 3:40 AM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 491 by arachnophilia, posted 01-02-2011 4:01 AM Dawn Bertot has not replied

  
Dawn Bertot
Member (Idle past 201 days)
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


(2)
Message 506 of 566 (598793)
01-02-2011 4:31 PM
Reply to: Message 500 by dwise1
01-02-2011 4:56 AM


Re: other scriptures
Again, bullshit! The ones deconverting are the ones who grew up on your "firm foundation", who cut their teeth on it.
Please stop your silly posturing and actually deal with the issue of deconversion!
Youve presented no argument. Saying why you believe they have left is not an argument. Give me thier argument.
As i have tried to explain to you before, to which you do not understand, this thread is about the specific arguments that could be brought forward for deconversion.
Not a list of WHO has deconverted and HOW many in droves and the such like that you keep presenting
Watch me present the same type of "argument" that has been characteristic of your posts
Atheism, skepticism, etc makes up about 5 to 7 percent of the worlds population and the rest of the population share or have some form of belief in God, scripture and the afterlife.
IOWs you are like a faulty firecracker finally going off. We all stop and look for a moment then turn back to what is rational, believable and acceptable
So now, according to your reasoning and how you have applied these tiresome posts, we must be right because we are in the majority, correct?
Now we can continue to do what you have been doing or we can actually look at specific arguments
Dawn Bertot

This message is a reply to:
 Message 500 by dwise1, posted 01-02-2011 4:56 AM dwise1 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 507 by Panda, posted 01-02-2011 4:39 PM Dawn Bertot has replied
 Message 529 by dwise1, posted 01-03-2011 10:22 AM Dawn Bertot has replied

  
Dawn Bertot
Member (Idle past 201 days)
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


(1)
Message 508 of 566 (598795)
01-02-2011 4:58 PM
Reply to: Message 483 by arachnophilia
01-02-2011 3:40 AM


Re: highly illogical
since that sentence doesn't actually parse as english, i'll have to try and interpret what the heck you mean. you mean, why if the text quotes someone as saying they're inspired is inspiration still an assumption? simple. two reasons:
it assumes the accuracy of the that person being quoted, which remains to be demonstrated by comparing it against factual claims, and
it assumes that the accuracy of the text in reporting what that person said
we've been over this. i know you don't understand it, and i know that you won't understand it anytime soon. but your logic is circular. you assume your conclusion. the text is inspired because it says so. and we know what it says is true because it's inspired. keep chasing your tail.
Again and to which you keep paying no attention, if the writer claims inspiration and is not actually miraculously inspired there is no reason to believe a single thing they say.
If inspiration is not real and actual as the text states, then it changes the whole reason and perspective of what you are doing and who might have fulfilled this or that
Muchless whether Jesus was some fulfillment of some unreliable, lying, imaginative person, some 1000 years earler
In contrast, if you are not sure of his inspiration, dont believe it, dont believe he is the author, not sure of its reliability, then logically there is no way you could know he WAS NOT that fulfillment. You would be guessing the same as anyone else
but your logic is circular.
Not if we are both looking at the texts, what they say and what they include, (Inspiration from God)in this instance I cannot ASSUME it as a conclusion, because it IS THERE in plain sight like all the details of your "Son" and the Prophecy are there to begin with, to draw a conclusion
No assumption or circular reasoning is required when I have the necessary ingredients provided for me
That is if we are going to go by your own rules. Your the one that set them up, not me
Dawn Bertot

This message is a reply to:
 Message 483 by arachnophilia, posted 01-02-2011 3:40 AM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 511 by bluescat48, posted 01-02-2011 5:41 PM Dawn Bertot has replied
 Message 513 by arachnophilia, posted 01-02-2011 8:01 PM Dawn Bertot has replied

  
Dawn Bertot
Member (Idle past 201 days)
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


(1)
Message 509 of 566 (598798)
01-02-2011 5:02 PM
Reply to: Message 507 by Panda
01-02-2011 4:39 PM


Re: other scriptures
So...faulty firecrackers are not rational, believable or acceptable.
Good work there, kiddo.
Sure there real, but like skepticism itself it serves no useful purpose and burns out quickly
You fellas have no real impact, because after all these years, you still make up a percentage so small its barley worth mentioning, correct
if you are so successful shouldnt the numbers be greater after thousands of years.
What happened Panda, what went wrong?
Dawn Bertot

This message is a reply to:
 Message 507 by Panda, posted 01-02-2011 4:39 PM Panda has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 510 by jar, posted 01-02-2011 5:34 PM Dawn Bertot has not replied
 Message 512 by Panda, posted 01-02-2011 6:38 PM Dawn Bertot has not replied

  
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