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Author Topic:   Can a valid, supportable reason be offered for deconversion
dwise1
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Posts: 5992
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 492 of 566 (598757)
01-02-2011 4:02 AM
Reply to: Message 484 by Dawn Bertot
01-02-2011 3:42 AM


Re: liars, or lied to?
Oh, and you completely ignored what the message was saying.
Typical! So sadly typical!

This message is a reply to:
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dwise1
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Posts: 5992
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 493 of 566 (598758)
01-02-2011 4:11 AM
Reply to: Message 485 by arachnophilia
01-02-2011 3:44 AM


Re: liars, or lied to?
i liked mine better. but i suspect it went over his head.
Wait a minute here. Okrand be thanked, there is a canonical Klingon language. But then in the production of Enterprise, they made a decision to use gibberish instead of creating any actual languages. Outside of the first Star Trek movie (where Vulcan had an Old English sound to me), the most screen Vulcan has been on Enterprise, but that was mainly gibberish, not an actual language.
There was a Vulcan language site, but it was not canonical. May I ask what your source is? Messaging is permissible.

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dwise1
Member
Posts: 5992
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 497 of 566 (598762)
01-02-2011 4:33 AM
Reply to: Message 490 by arachnophilia
01-02-2011 3:55 AM


Re: What does Christian Doctrine say ... ?
note dawns answer to my moral dilemma, above. lying would not be okay -- he claims he'd do it, but it would be morally wrong to do so.
Yes, I noticed. And it does not help to disspell the confusion.
Our first dog had a dog cage, which was his bed. Well, my wife felt that he needed a cage, but we kept it open most of the time and his bed was in there. Remember "Bill Cosby, Himself"? According to his act, college graduates read books on how they should raise children, etc ("me being a PE major, I'd have the kid run a lap and go to bed"). She had never had a dog growing up, but she read Pinkus Zuckermann's "Super-Puppy". In that book, to punish the dog you'd isolate him from you, so when our dog was punished, we'd tell him to go to his bed (ie, his cage), which he would do. But then it got to the point where something would happen and he'd know that he was in trouble, so entirely on his own he'd slink into his cage, then turn right around as if to say, "OK, I went to my room, so we're all cool now, right?" We started calling him our Catholic dog (neither of us were, though they had tried to raise her as such), going to do his pentence and being absolved of his sins.
I've noticed something similar among fundamentalist Christians. Humans, of course. Remember the bumper sticker, "Not Perfect, Just Forgiven"? That was their attitude. But additionally, there was the knowledge that, being human, they would inevitably stumble (their keyword for it), make a moral mistake. Whereupon they would ask God/Jesus for forgiveness and would of course receive it (what invisible friend wouldn't?).
So in my mind, I see them sinning away, all for "Jesus' cause" of course, and then asking for and immediately receiving forgiveness.
Funny thing, though. In those sins, somebody was wronged. They got forgiven and all that, but what about those who were wronged? Kind of goes against any kind of actual sense of morality, doesn't it?

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dwise1
Member
Posts: 5992
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 498 of 566 (598763)
01-02-2011 4:46 AM
Reply to: Message 495 by arachnophilia
01-02-2011 4:31 AM


Re: liars, or lied to?
of course, i suspect that's because, after nimoy was no longer a regular, there weren't any good jewish boys around to teach them mystical hebrew stuff.
He did do some "Jewish voices" work for NPR, didn't he?
But a sneaky one was "Dagger of the Mind", early first season, ST:TOS. Screenplay by one "Bar David". Made passing reference to the story of the Pharisee Rabbi Hillel who was challenged by a Gentile to recite the entirety of the Law (ie, the Torah, the Pentetuch, the First Five Books of Moses, the first 5 books of the Old Testament) while standing on one foot. In Pharisee fashion, Rabbi Hillel responded, "Do not to others that which is displeasing to yourself. That is the whole of the Law. The rest is just explanation." The Golden Rule. 20 BCE, a full 50 years before the purported ministry of Jesus.
I will need to peruse Memory Alpha. tlhIngan Hol can be fun (albeit messy; Michael Dorn recommends keeping a handkerchief handy), but the Vulcan language was something we would have loved to get our hands on.

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dwise1
Member
Posts: 5992
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 500 of 566 (598765)
01-02-2011 4:56 AM
Reply to: Message 463 by Dawn Bertot
01-02-2011 2:31 AM


Re: other scriptures
Thats funny, I must be lying because I disagree with you. That says alot about your personality
Are you mad because I disagree with your conclusions. I honestly and firmly believe no argument has been presented in logical presentation, the conclusion of which is irrefutable, that would and should cause a person to deconvert
Bullshit! And nothing you say has anything to do with what you quoted me as saying.
As I pointed out earlier, most people that deconvert dont have a firm foundation, they dont even understand basics, so the slightest wind would uproot thier shallow roots system
Again, bullshit! The ones deconverting are the ones who grew up on your "firm foundation", who cut their teeth on it.
Please stop your silly posturing and actually deal with the issue of deconversion!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 463 by Dawn Bertot, posted 01-02-2011 2:31 AM Dawn Bertot has replied

Replies to this message:
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dwise1
Member
Posts: 5992
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 502 of 566 (598768)
01-02-2011 5:17 AM
Reply to: Message 499 by arachnophilia
01-02-2011 4:55 AM


Re: What does Christian Doctrine say ... ?
As I was a fundamentalist Christian "fellow traveller", I was also a kind of Jewish "Mitfahrer" (Verzeihung da ich das genaue Judische nicht kann); a friend always referred to me as "a good Jewish goy".
Though to be honest, I've usually been more attuned to the fundamentalist Christian thing. Like when Pat Robertson was running for President in the 1980's and some reporter asked him whether somebody had to be Christian to get into heaven. He replied that a Jew who had followed all the Law throughout his life also could. But those who have ears, let them listen. I had ears, so I had listened. The fundamentalist teaching was that the Law was set up so that nobody could keep it completely throughout their lives, which necessitated a Redeemer. Pat Roberson's lie was to make it appear that a non-Christian could get into heaven, whereas the actual Christian teaching was that that as impossible.

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dwise1
Member
Posts: 5992
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 503 of 566 (598770)
01-02-2011 5:26 AM
Reply to: Message 495 by arachnophilia
01-02-2011 4:31 AM


Re: liars, or lied to?
Got it. Tov Todah!

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dwise1
Member
Posts: 5992
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 3.1


(1)
Message 529 of 566 (598849)
01-03-2011 10:22 AM
Reply to: Message 506 by Dawn Bertot
01-02-2011 4:31 PM


Re: other scriptures
As i have tried to explain to you before, to which you do not understand, this thread is about the specific arguments that could be brought forward for deconversion.
Not a list of WHO has deconverted and HOW many in droves and the such like that you keep presenting
Then read the testimonials. Duh?
You even "participated" in the Deconversion experiences topic here. Why don't you go back and this time actually read the deconversion stories. You should also go to an ex-Christian site or forum, such as http://www.ex-christian.net/, which has many testimonials and discussions of deconversion. The "horse's mouth", duh?
In reading such stories over the years, an interesting pattern presents itself. Actually, that pattern becomes immediately apparent, glaringly obvious. Some deconverts left Roman Catholicism and a variety of mainstream churches, but the vast majority of deconverts left some form of fundamentalist, evangelical, and/or conservative Christianity. Furthermore, the stories of those leaving fundamentalism were the more extreme and gut-wrenching stories.
Dawn, it cannot be any coincidence that it's your own type of Christian theology that is hemorrhaging members. Something has to be causing it, something peculiar to that theology that they are fleeing. The subtext of your posts is that the solution to deconversion is your own type of indoctrination, but that cannot be true because those ex-fundamentalist deconverts had themselves received that exact same indoctrination.
Deny reality all you want. Hide your head deeper and deeper in the sand. Invoke more and more magical "explanations". That won't change reality one whit.
Playing the Black Knight ("It's only a scratch!") is only funny when it's not actually happening.
Edited by dwise1, : "then" had dropped an "n"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 506 by Dawn Bertot, posted 01-02-2011 4:31 PM Dawn Bertot has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 531 by Dawn Bertot, posted 01-03-2011 5:28 PM dwise1 has replied

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 5992
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 3.1


(1)
Message 539 of 566 (598926)
01-03-2011 8:24 PM
Reply to: Message 531 by Dawn Bertot
01-03-2011 5:28 PM


Re: other scriptures
As i told you before , association with Christianity is not the same as being rooted and grounded in its tenets
Dawn, please open your eyes. We're talking about the children raised in fundamentalist/evangelical/conservative Christian churches. Attending Christian schools throughout their childhoods. Or home-schooled. Going to "Jesus Camps" every summer. Getting thoroughly indoctrinated every day of their lives. That is no mere "association" with Chrisitian. That's drowning in it! And the painful process of deconversion that they describe proves it!
Dawn, they were as "associated with Christianity" as you.
Or are you saying that your Christian churches -- not the mainstream ones, but rather the "True Christian" fundamentalist/evangelical/conservative ones -- and their schools are failing utterly? Remember, 80% of the kids raised and thoroughly indoctrinated as fundamentalist/evangelical/conservative Christians will deconvert, most of them leaving Christianity altogether. That is 4 out of 5, which is a helluva lot. That's not just most of them; that pretty near all of them.
So which is it, Dawn? What is causing these thoroughly indoctrinated (not just merely "associated") kids to deconvert in such enormous numbers? Kids thoroughly indoctrinated in theologies virtually identical to your own. Is it something peculiar to your type of theology? Or are your type of churches and Christian schools and youth programs complete failures? Or is it both?
You've tried to offer the "solution" of including design in science classes. Well, that is what those kids are raised on in the Christian schools. Why, they even throw in massive amounts of "creation science" as well. Their mass deconversion is convincing evidence that your "solution" doesn't work.
I might remind you again that it is you the skeptic and Atheist that is in the low percentage as far as beliefs go.
What happened Dewise after thounsands of years, you are still in the single digit representation
Considering that religious liberty was virtually non-existent prior to the Enlightenment (18th Century, when our nation was formed) and harsh religious laws (including death for deconverting from Catholicism) and persecution of any form of religious dissident prevailed in pre-Enlightenment Europe, I don't see where you get that "thousands of years" from.
But our numbers are growing, Dawn, thanks to you and other "true Christians". Your children are fleeing your theology and joining us, in droves. And you're too frightened for your own faith (your defense mechanisms are a large part of your reason for denying reality with such determination) to even care, writing off 80% of your next generation as slackard hang-abouts.
Thank you for your generous contributions to the growth and spread of atheism, Dawn. Do please continue to donate as generously as you have in the past.
Edited by dwise1, : added short historical note

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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