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Author Topic:   When does killing an animal constitute murder?
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 215 of 352 (595453)
12-08-2010 4:56 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Meldinoor
12-05-2010 4:12 AM


But (and correct me if I'm wrong) under no jurisdiction is the slaughter of a gorilla legally considered murder. Animal cruelty perhaps, but nowhere near as serious as the killing of another human. Why is this?
Simple: They ain't us.
Even vampires know this:
quote:
There is but one crime...
...among us vampires here.
It is the crime that means
death to any vampire:
To kill your own kind.
Considering how gorillas share nearly all of our DNA, and their intelligence and level of self-awareness rival our own, why do we consider cruelty to gorillas to fall under the same legal category as cruelty to cows?
Laws take time to catch up...
I think there are activists out there for apes to be better protected by law than, say, cows.
Or to look at it from an evolutionary perspective: If someone were to go back 50,000 years and kill a cro-magnon, any jury would find him just as guilty of murder as if he'd have killed a contemporary. But suppose he went back 100,000 years, or 500,000, or 1,000,000 years? Or 6,000,000 years? At what point should he be tried for "animal cruelty" instead of murder?
If they're ancestors then they *is* us.
So I guess my question is: Given that all life is related and that the traits that we consider "human" are shared by many other animals to varying degrees,
Do you believe there is a sharp moral distinction between the killing of one subset of animals and all other animals, and where do you place it?
No, not really.
I could draw lots of lines though... and I think they'd sorta follow the nested hierarchy.
I could put a line between other apes and animals, between other primates and other animals, between other mammals and other animals, between other vertibrates and other animals, etc.
I don't find much of a moral distinction there though.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Meldinoor, posted 12-05-2010 4:12 AM Meldinoor has not replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 219 of 352 (595463)
12-08-2010 5:11 PM
Reply to: Message 205 by Jon
12-08-2010 3:34 PM


Re: Not murder under any circumstances
When society implants into the minds of the individual the notion that the mistreatment of certain animals is wrong, it helps to assure that these individuals will now include as wrong the mistreatment of less animal-like creatures, even if these creatures (perhaps homo sapiens by decent) are more like these animals and less like an average human.
Tell me - are scientists who do animal research more likely to beat their wives or husbands, in your view?
I don't know. But the animals they use are rarely included in the grouping of animals set off by society as 'unharmable', for that very reason. So, your question is not relevant to my position.
Dogs? Cats? Cute rabbits? Chimpanzees? These are the animals being used in testing and these are certainly animals society has deemed unkillable and untorturable including some in this thread - including you - who have argued for their protection.
Yup; and it is chic to manufacture products that are not tested on these animals; many in society don't like it.
I think you're missing the point...
In lab animal research facilities, like the National Institute of Health for example, they do all kinds of terrible things to dogs and cats and monkeys, etc. The researchers there are not any different than regular people; they do not have any negetive effects from the lack of these "safe measures" that you've brought up.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 205 by Jon, posted 12-08-2010 3:34 PM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 220 by Jon, posted 12-08-2010 5:15 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 223 of 352 (595471)
12-08-2010 5:27 PM
Reply to: Message 220 by Jon
12-08-2010 5:15 PM


Re: Not murder under any circumstances
It's a safe measure. Not everyone needs it to be safe; the net's only there for if you fall.
That's just stupid.
The point is that people *are* falling and they don't need the net, so it seems that the net isn't doing anything at all!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 220 by Jon, posted 12-08-2010 5:15 PM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 224 by Jon, posted 12-08-2010 6:13 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 226 of 352 (595480)
12-08-2010 8:13 PM
Reply to: Message 224 by Jon
12-08-2010 6:13 PM


Re: Not murder under any circumstances
Huh? How are those scientists falling?
They're torturing animals.
Are they killing babies in their cribs? Do they beat their wives; wait at bus stops and snipe off random people?
Its not coincidence that that is what crash was asking you
They aren't falling at all; that is why they ignore the net.
"Falling" is torturing animals, the net is there to keep them from "beating their wives"... it not being needed is the point you've missed.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 224 by Jon, posted 12-08-2010 6:13 PM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 237 by Jon, posted 12-09-2010 1:07 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 271 of 352 (596184)
12-13-2010 5:34 PM
Reply to: Message 237 by Jon
12-09-2010 1:07 PM


Re: A New Explanation
You seem to be misunderstanding what I am saying. Let me try to explain it again:
If Society deems as immoral the mistreatment of things which are clearly non-human, then anyone who accept this viewpoint is less likely to apply criteria for 'human' that may exclude, for example, the mentally deficient, babies, etc. In other words, if someone accepts this morality, then they are less likely to think of babies and mentally deficients (for example) as less than human.
You seem to be misunderstanding me to say:
If someone doesn't accept this morality, then they are more likely to think of babies and mentally deficients (for example) as less than human.
Now, unfortunately, this re-rendering of my position is an illogical one; an example of the inverse error fallacy.
No. If group A is less likely to X than group B, then that means that group B is more likely to X than group A.
Right?
So how is accepting the mistreatment of animals as immoral acting as a safety net at all if we consider that scientists who do experiments on animals aren't worse than people who don't?
Your safety net is uneccessary because it doesn't actually do anything.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 237 by Jon, posted 12-09-2010 1:07 PM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 272 by xongsmith, posted 12-13-2010 6:55 PM New Cat's Eye has not replied
 Message 273 by Jon, posted 12-13-2010 7:13 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 279 of 352 (596668)
12-16-2010 12:36 PM
Reply to: Message 273 by Jon
12-13-2010 7:13 PM


Re: A New Explanation
Perhaps, but not related to the statement in question.
Here's your claims, Jon:
quote:
When society implants into the minds of the individual the notion that the mistreatment of certain animals is wrong, it helps to assure that these individuals will now include as wrong the mistreatment of less animal-like creatures, even if these creatures (perhaps homo sapiens by decent) are more like these animals and less like an average human.
quote:
If Society deems as immoral the mistreatment of things which are clearly non-human, then anyone who accept this viewpoint is less likely to apply criteria for 'human' that may exclude, for example, the mentally deficient, babies, etc. In other words, if someone accepts this morality, then they are less likely to think of babies and mentally deficients (for example) as less than human.
You talk of these implantations and deemings as a "safety net" for people.
If you're not going to clarify or expound your claims, then they're going to remain as bullshit that stands as refuted.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 273 by Jon, posted 12-13-2010 7:13 PM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 284 by Jon, posted 12-16-2010 5:26 PM New Cat's Eye has not replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 303 of 352 (598886)
01-03-2011 2:17 PM


lulz

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 311 of 352 (599804)
01-10-2011 5:40 PM
Reply to: Message 310 by xongsmith
01-10-2011 5:31 PM


Re: The US Declaration of Independence needs to be fixed
In the Science Fiction world you may run across the acronym HILF, which stands for Highly Intelligent Life Form.
What do they call a Minimally Intelligent Life Form?
Edited by Catholic Scientist, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 310 by xongsmith, posted 01-10-2011 5:31 PM xongsmith has seen this message but not replied

  
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