Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9164 total)
2 online now:
Newest Member: ChatGPT
Post Volume: Total: 916,422 Year: 3,679/9,624 Month: 550/974 Week: 163/276 Day: 3/34 Hour: 0/1


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Problems with evolution? Submit your questions.
Taq
Member
Posts: 10038
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 526 of 752 (599031)
01-04-2011 6:16 PM
Reply to: Message 523 by shadow71
01-04-2011 2:43 PM


There are some things that do not have natural models.
How does a lack of a known natural mechanism indicate that the supernatural was responsible?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 523 by shadow71, posted 01-04-2011 2:43 PM shadow71 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 527 by shadow71, posted 01-04-2011 7:04 PM Taq has replied

shadow71
Member (Idle past 2955 days)
Posts: 706
From: Joliet, il, USA
Joined: 08-31-2010


Message 527 of 752 (599044)
01-04-2011 7:04 PM
Reply to: Message 526 by Taq
01-04-2011 6:16 PM


How does a lack of a known natural mechanism indicate that the supernatural was responsible?
Well if there is no natural mechanism and something exists, can one not consider a supernatural?
I see on this board a resistance to think about philsophy or any other discplines other than natural science. There are other ways to solve problems and reach conclusions besides science.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 526 by Taq, posted 01-04-2011 6:16 PM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 528 by Theodoric, posted 01-04-2011 7:07 PM shadow71 has replied
 Message 529 by jar, posted 01-04-2011 7:08 PM shadow71 has replied
 Message 530 by Granny Magda, posted 01-04-2011 7:15 PM shadow71 has replied
 Message 541 by Blue Jay, posted 01-05-2011 3:38 PM shadow71 has not replied
 Message 542 by Taq, posted 01-05-2011 3:39 PM shadow71 has replied

Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9142
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 528 of 752 (599047)
01-04-2011 7:07 PM
Reply to: Message 527 by shadow71
01-04-2011 7:04 PM


There are other ways to solve problems and reach conclusions besides science.
Any evidence for this?

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

This message is a reply to:
 Message 527 by shadow71, posted 01-04-2011 7:04 PM shadow71 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 532 by shadow71, posted 01-04-2011 7:23 PM Theodoric has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 415 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 529 of 752 (599048)
01-04-2011 7:08 PM
Reply to: Message 527 by shadow71
01-04-2011 7:04 PM


Well if there is no natural mechanism and something exists, can one not consider a supernatural?
No, one cannot.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 527 by shadow71, posted 01-04-2011 7:04 PM shadow71 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 533 by shadow71, posted 01-04-2011 7:25 PM jar has replied

Granny Magda
Member
Posts: 2462
From: UK
Joined: 11-12-2007
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 530 of 752 (599051)
01-04-2011 7:15 PM
Reply to: Message 527 by shadow71
01-04-2011 7:04 PM


Well if there is no natural mechanism and something exists, can one not consider a supernatural?
No known mechanism. How do you distinguish between a situation where there really is no natural mechanism and a situation where there is a natural mechanism, but you simply don't know of it?
How do we tell between when we have reached the limits of what is possible and when we have merely reached the limits of our understanding?
I see on this board a resistance to think about philsophy or any other discplines other than natural science. There are other ways to solve problems and reach conclusions besides science.
That's because science works. What do you suggest we put in its place? Armchair philosophising? Having a really hard think about something? Reaching for answers from tomes of myth? Inserting comforting fictions into the gaps in our knowledge?
Forgive us if the rest of us stick with science.
Mutate and Survive

On two occasions I have been asked, — "Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out?" ... I am not able rightly to apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question. - Charles Babbage

This message is a reply to:
 Message 527 by shadow71, posted 01-04-2011 7:04 PM shadow71 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 534 by shadow71, posted 01-04-2011 7:29 PM Granny Magda has replied

shadow71
Member (Idle past 2955 days)
Posts: 706
From: Joliet, il, USA
Joined: 08-31-2010


Message 531 of 752 (599053)
01-04-2011 7:17 PM
Reply to: Message 525 by jar
01-04-2011 4:33 PM


If you wish to present some problem with evolution, doing a copy-n-paste of some philosophic ramblings about an old man's opinions carries no weight.
If you wish to claim that there was some planning or intervention in this specific incident then you need to bring the planner in and sit him on the table to be examined and for him to demonstrate the method used to intervene.
That is really a silly answer. I have presented what I believe are problems with Darwinian & neo-Darwinian theory that were raised by scientists, and you just want to say, produce proof of God. I have already stated I can't produce God.
By the way Anthony Flew was probaobly the first spokesman for atheism, adored and glorfied by Dawkins and Dennett. When he follows the evidence he is just an old man.
Philosophy is, if you didn't know, a very respected and productive discpline that has enriched many men and womens lives.
Take a little time to read some Philosophy, broaden your horizons.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 525 by jar, posted 01-04-2011 4:33 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 535 by jar, posted 01-04-2011 7:38 PM shadow71 has not replied

shadow71
Member (Idle past 2955 days)
Posts: 706
From: Joliet, il, USA
Joined: 08-31-2010


Message 532 of 752 (599057)
01-04-2011 7:23 PM
Reply to: Message 528 by Theodoric
01-04-2011 7:07 PM


There are other ways to solve problems and reach conclusions besides science.
Any evidence for this?
Democracy comes to mind.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 528 by Theodoric, posted 01-04-2011 7:07 PM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 538 by Theodoric, posted 01-04-2011 9:00 PM shadow71 has not replied

shadow71
Member (Idle past 2955 days)
Posts: 706
From: Joliet, il, USA
Joined: 08-31-2010


Message 533 of 752 (599058)
01-04-2011 7:25 PM
Reply to: Message 529 by jar
01-04-2011 7:08 PM


Well if there is no natural mechanism and something exists, can one not consider a supernatural?
No, one cannot.
Do you have proof for that statement?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 529 by jar, posted 01-04-2011 7:08 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 536 by jar, posted 01-04-2011 7:41 PM shadow71 has not replied

shadow71
Member (Idle past 2955 days)
Posts: 706
From: Joliet, il, USA
Joined: 08-31-2010


Message 534 of 752 (599059)
01-04-2011 7:29 PM
Reply to: Message 530 by Granny Magda
01-04-2011 7:15 PM


That's because science works. What do you suggest we put in its place? Armchair philosophising? Having a really hard think about something? Reaching for answers from tomes of myth? Inserting comforting fictions into the gaps in our knowledge?
Forgive us if the rest of us stick with science.
The problem is you belileve science is the answer to everything. There are other ways to solve problems. I know some on this board rely on Psychology.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 530 by Granny Magda, posted 01-04-2011 7:15 PM Granny Magda has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 537 by Granny Magda, posted 01-04-2011 7:48 PM shadow71 has not replied
 Message 539 by Larni, posted 01-05-2011 5:24 AM shadow71 has replied
 Message 543 by Taq, posted 01-05-2011 3:42 PM shadow71 has not replied
 Message 613 by Larni, posted 03-01-2011 12:23 PM shadow71 has not replied

jar
Member (Idle past 415 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 535 of 752 (599060)
01-04-2011 7:38 PM
Reply to: Message 531 by shadow71
01-04-2011 7:17 PM


shadow71 writes:
jar writes:
If you wish to present some problem with evolution, doing a copy-n-paste of some philosophic ramblings about an old man's opinions carries no weight.
If you wish to claim that there was some planning or intervention in this specific incident then you need to bring the planner in and sit him on the table to be examined and for him to demonstrate the method used to intervene.
That is really a silly answer. I have presented what I believe are problems with Darwinian & neo-Darwinian theory that were raised by scientists, and you just want to say, produce proof of God. I have already stated I can't produce God.
By the way Anthony Flew was probaobly the first spokesman for atheism, adored and glorfied by Dawkins and Dennett. When he follows the evidence he is just an old man.
Philosophy is, if you didn't know, a very respected and productive discpline that has enriched many men and womens lives.
Take a little time to read some Philosophy, broaden your horizons.
LOL
As if I have not read philosophy, and yes, philosophy is often fun; so is fantasy.
The issue is evolution though, and we are dealing with science. That has absolutely nothing to do with God or Christianity. To introduce religious beliefs is simply irrelevant,

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 531 by shadow71, posted 01-04-2011 7:17 PM shadow71 has not replied

jar
Member (Idle past 415 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 536 of 752 (599061)
01-04-2011 7:41 PM
Reply to: Message 533 by shadow71
01-04-2011 7:25 PM


shadow71 writes:
Well if there is no natural mechanism and something exists, can one not consider a supernatural?
No, one cannot.
Do you have proof for that statement?
Of course and you have even explained why we cannot speculate on the supernatural; it is simply a waste of time and and end to learning. You have said you cannot produce God and that you have no model of how the supernatural intervenes in the process.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 533 by shadow71, posted 01-04-2011 7:25 PM shadow71 has not replied

Granny Magda
Member
Posts: 2462
From: UK
Joined: 11-12-2007
Member Rating: 3.8


(1)
Message 537 of 752 (599064)
01-04-2011 7:48 PM
Reply to: Message 534 by shadow71
01-04-2011 7:29 PM


The problem is you belileve science is the answer to everything.
I'll be the judge of what I believe thank you!
In fact, I don't believe that. What I do believe is that in trying to find answers to questions about matters of objective reality, there exists only one discipline with a proven track record of success; science. To answer questions about the real world we need to empirical observations. We need a rigorous logical approach to understanding those observations. That's what science is. It's simply the most effective way of answering questions about the real world.
There are other ways to solve problems.
Yes, but not every way of reaching answers is appropriate for every question.
Do you prefer the Beatles, shadow, or the Rolling Stones? Now that is a question of aesthetic merit, an entirely subjective question. You can appropriately reach an answer by just mulling it over and deciding upon whichever conclusion most pleases you. No-one can say you are wrong.
But the question of the origins of Eukaryotes is not a subjective question. It is not a matter of personal taste, nor democracy, nor psychology. It is a matter of objective fact.
All we can do is to try, as best we can, to reach an answer that approximates the truth as closely as possible. Sometimes we may be fortunate enough to hit upon exactly the right answer. Other times, the answers may be obscure. What we should never be willing to do though, is to give up looking.
I believe that in resorting to a comforting supernatural explanation (in your case, the Christian God), you have stopped honestly seeking answers. You are allowing yourself to engage in a from of self-deception, one that seems like it is providing you with answers but in reality, is just an exercise in fantasy. You are never going to arrive at an answer by surrendering to ignorance with God-of-the-gaps arguments.
Mutate and Survive

On two occasions I have been asked, — "Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out?" ... I am not able rightly to apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question. - Charles Babbage

This message is a reply to:
 Message 534 by shadow71, posted 01-04-2011 7:29 PM shadow71 has not replied

Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9142
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 538 of 752 (599085)
01-04-2011 9:00 PM
Reply to: Message 532 by shadow71
01-04-2011 7:23 PM


Democracy comes to mind.
The discussion is about evolution not politics. Also, democracy is a subset of political science. Your comment was an implication that something counter to science could be used to solve problem and reach conclusions.
Science and Democracy are not similar things. You do not seem to be too confident in your arguments if this is the best you can come up with.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

This message is a reply to:
 Message 532 by shadow71, posted 01-04-2011 7:23 PM shadow71 has not replied

Larni
Member (Idle past 185 days)
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 539 of 752 (599127)
01-05-2011 5:24 AM
Reply to: Message 534 by shadow71
01-04-2011 7:29 PM


Point of order: Psychology is a science. One of the mandatory courses in a psycholgy degree is the philosophy and practice of the scientific method. How else donyou think we do our experiments?
It's science all the way.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 534 by shadow71, posted 01-04-2011 7:29 PM shadow71 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 540 by shadow71, posted 01-05-2011 2:43 PM Larni has not replied

shadow71
Member (Idle past 2955 days)
Posts: 706
From: Joliet, il, USA
Joined: 08-31-2010


Message 540 of 752 (599201)
01-05-2011 2:43 PM
Reply to: Message 539 by Larni
01-05-2011 5:24 AM


Point of order: Psychology is a science. One of the mandatory courses in a psycholgy degree is the philosophy and practice of the scientific method. How else donyou think we do our experiments?
No disrepect meant Larni. That was an inside joke. On another message post Granny diagnosed me with cognitive dissonance.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 539 by Larni, posted 01-05-2011 5:24 AM Larni has not replied

Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024