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Author Topic:   Faith healing:proof of god, or placebo effect?
frako
Member (Idle past 305 days)
Posts: 2932
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010


Message 46 of 77 (598647)
01-01-2011 4:03 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by Phage0070
12-31-2010 1:49 PM


Re: Astounding Science
A tiny amount of vitamin C and potassium isn't likely to effect your pain, and I would wager that you haven't the faintest justification for why it should. Its like you swallowed an Oxycodone pill with a swig of Gatorade and then started to swear by Gatorade as a painkiller.
So why dose it only work if i squeze a lemon in the coffee the coffee alone does not relive the hedache

This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by Phage0070, posted 12-31-2010 1:49 PM Phage0070 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 47 by Phage0070, posted 01-01-2011 4:24 PM frako has replied

  
Phage0070
Inactive Member


Message 47 of 77 (598651)
01-01-2011 4:24 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by frako
01-01-2011 4:03 PM


Re: Astounding Science
frako writes:
So why dose it only work if i squeze a lemon in the coffee the coffee alone does not relive the hedache
Because you only pay attention when you squeeze the lemon in, and any other time you simply ignore it and it mysteriously disappears. Or, because every time you have a headache you put lemon in and you never really tested otherwise.
Have you really done your homework here? Even if the next time you had a headache you simply had a glass of water with a little lemon, you wouldn't prove anything if the headache goes away after a little while. They tend to do that anyway. You would have to chart the length and severity of your headaches and get a proper data set. In fact, considering what a squirrelly mystic you seem to be it would have to be a double-blind study to keep you from fudging the data, consciously or not.
On the other hand Bristol-Myers Squibb *did* do proper scientific studies to determine the effectiveness of their products, and you are probably taking 3-4 times that dosage. So what do you think: more than enough of an active ingredient of a hundred million dollar a year medically proven product, or a beverage condiment?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by frako, posted 01-01-2011 4:03 PM frako has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 49 by frako, posted 01-02-2011 5:06 AM Phage0070 has replied

  
Panda
Member (Idle past 3713 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 48 of 77 (598667)
01-01-2011 6:16 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by lyx2no
12-30-2010 7:58 PM


Re: When Time Avails
lyx2no writes:
I'll be sure to do this justice. But I've a hard time taking a lot of it seriously when a pain metric is how tightly one scrunches ones forehead.
Panda writes:
The treated conditions are quite varied, but they include epilepsy, stroke, high blood pressure, etc.
You'll note from my example that there is more to it than 'scrunching one's forehead'.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by lyx2no, posted 12-30-2010 7:58 PM lyx2no has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 51 by lyx2no, posted 01-02-2011 9:21 AM Panda has replied

  
frako
Member (Idle past 305 days)
Posts: 2932
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010


Message 49 of 77 (598767)
01-02-2011 5:06 AM
Reply to: Message 47 by Phage0070
01-01-2011 4:24 PM


Re: Astounding Science
I did a bit of research on it and the home remedy is all over the Internet the closest to what i have come to an explanation of what happens is that the mix expands your blood vessels.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by Phage0070, posted 01-01-2011 4:24 PM Phage0070 has replied

Replies to this message:
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Phage0070
Inactive Member


Message 50 of 77 (598775)
01-02-2011 9:03 AM
Reply to: Message 49 by frako
01-02-2011 5:06 AM


Re: Astounding Science
frako writes:
I did a bit of research on it and the home remedy is all over the Internet the closest to what i have come to an explanation of what happens is that the mix expands your blood vessels.
quote:
Caffeine - Wikipedia
Caffeine is metabolized in the liver by the cytochrome P450 oxidase enzyme system (to be specific, the 1A2 isozyme) into three metabolic dimethylxanthines,[65] each of which has its own effects on the body:
Paraxanthine (84%): Has the effect of increasing lipolysis, leading to elevated glycerol and free fatty acid levels in the blood plasma.
Theobromine (12%): Dilates blood vessels and increases urine volume. Theobromine is also the principal alkaloid in the cocoa bean, and therefore chocolate.
Theophylline (4%): Relaxes smooth muscles of the bronchi, and is used to treat asthma. The therapeutic dose of theophylline, however, is many times greater than the levels attained from caffeine metabolism.
No shit Sherlock!

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lyx2no
Member (Idle past 4716 days)
Posts: 1277
From: A vast, undifferentiated plane.
Joined: 02-28-2008


Message 51 of 77 (598777)
01-02-2011 9:21 AM
Reply to: Message 48 by Panda
01-01-2011 6:16 PM


Re: When Time Avails
The treated conditions are quite varied, but they include epilepsy, stroke, high blood pressure, etc. You'll note from my example that there is more to it than 'scrunching one's forehead'.
True enough. You'll note that none is being treated by placebo.

When cometh the day
We lowly ones
Through quiet reflection
And great dedication
Master the art of karate
Lo, we shall rise up
And then we'll make
The bugger's eyes water
Roger Waters

This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by Panda, posted 01-01-2011 6:16 PM Panda has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 52 by Panda, posted 01-02-2011 10:09 AM lyx2no has replied

  
Panda
Member (Idle past 3713 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 52 of 77 (598780)
01-02-2011 10:09 AM
Reply to: Message 51 by lyx2no
01-02-2011 9:21 AM


Re: When Time Avails
quote:
lyx2no: Got a lab report where grinning reduces BUN?
Panda: Here is a list of tests/treatments using biofeedback.
lyx2no: I've a hard time taking a lot of it seriously when a pain metric is how tightly one scrunches ones forehead.
Panda: You'll note from my example that there is more to it than 'scrunching one's forehead'.
lyx2no writes:
True enough. You'll note that none is being treated by placebo.
True enough. You'll note that you were not talking about placebos.
The answer to the facile question "Got a lab report where grinning reduces BUN?" is "Yes.".
Your refusal to believe the evidence has no effect on it's validity.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by lyx2no, posted 01-02-2011 9:21 AM lyx2no has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 53 by lyx2no, posted 01-02-2011 2:17 PM Panda has replied

  
lyx2no
Member (Idle past 4716 days)
Posts: 1277
From: A vast, undifferentiated plane.
Joined: 02-28-2008


Message 53 of 77 (598790)
01-02-2011 2:17 PM
Reply to: Message 52 by Panda
01-02-2011 10:09 AM


Re: When Time Avails
The answer to the facile question "Got a lab report where grinning reduces BUN?" is "Yes.".
The question when taken out of context does indeed appear to be facile. And so the facile answer yes would indeed apply. But the question had a context. An application of that context would firstly show that grin was a place holder for earlier gibber-jabber, not the act of flexing ones facial muscles. Secondly, if context is to be ignored, I don't remember if grinning was effective. was a better answer. You didn't actually supply evidence that grinning did reduce BUN.
But the larger point being, if the chain of events is: placebo modifies attitude, modified attitude manifests as healthier activity, healthier activity mediates health, then placebo is merely a proximate cause. Unless the proximate cause acts with as high degree of efficiency as the ultimate cause then skip crediting the placebo and attitude and credit and proscribe grinning.
If the placebo cum attitude leads to the body doing healthier things for itself why not proscribe placebo to everybody continuously. Assuming the placebo isn't listening in to the doctor saying "This is used to treat your foot fungus." it may mistakenly hunt down and kill that first cancer cell in the pancreas.
If the placebo triggers the mind to hunt down that cancer cell we need to find out why the mind ain't got the gumption to to it itself without the humming and hawing.
If the placebo is the ultimate cause, you've got magic.
That biofeedback can help us to learn to use muscles that we weren't using or weren't using effectively may be beneficial to health is not at issue. (Nor, I think, much at question.)
Your refusal to believe the evidence has no effect on it's validity.
No evidence was offered pertaining to the debate.

When cometh the day
We lowly ones
Through quiet reflection
And great dedication
Master the art of karate
Lo, we shall rise up
And then we'll make
The bugger's eyes water
Roger Waters

This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by Panda, posted 01-02-2011 10:09 AM Panda has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 54 by Panda, posted 01-02-2011 3:56 PM lyx2no has replied

  
Panda
Member (Idle past 3713 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 54 of 77 (598792)
01-02-2011 3:56 PM
Reply to: Message 53 by lyx2no
01-02-2011 2:17 PM


Re: When Time Avails
lyx2no writes:
But the larger point being, if the chain of events is: placebo modifies attitude, modified attitude manifests as healthier activity, healthier activity mediates health, then placebo is merely a proximate cause. Unless the proximate cause acts with as high degree of efficiency as the ultimate cause then skip crediting the placebo and attitude and credit and proscribe grinning.
If the placebo cum attitude leads to the body doing healthier things for itself why not proscribe placebo to everybody continuously. Assuming the placebo isn't listening in to the doctor saying "This is used to treat your foot fungus." it may mistakenly hunt down and kill that first cancer cell in the pancreas.
People do prescribe a positive attitude (to everybody continuously).
But not everyone listens, so people are tricked into 'self-healing' by being given a placebo.
lyx2no writes:
If the placebo triggers the mind to hunt down that cancer cell we need to find out why the mind ain't got the gumption to to it itself without the humming and hawing.
If a car is speeding towards us we don't automatically run away. We have to intentionally avoid the object.
There are many things that are required for our survival that have to be initiated by our minds.
lyx2no writes:
If the placebo is the ultimate cause, you've got magic.
What is being suggested is that placebos cause the mind to heal the body.
Much the same way a feint attack will cause a boxer to dodge. The attack may not be real, but the reaction to it is. (The feint is not 'magic'.)
lyx2no writes:
That biofeedback can help us to learn to use muscles that we weren't using or weren't using effectively may be beneficial to health is not at issue. (Nor, I think, much at question.)
It is related to the question "Got a lab report where grinning reduces BUN?".
It also addresses any comment about the brain being unable to control our physiology beyond its normal behaviour.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by lyx2no, posted 01-02-2011 2:17 PM lyx2no has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 63 by xongsmith, posted 01-07-2011 11:51 PM Panda has seen this message but not replied
 Message 69 by lyx2no, posted 01-09-2011 1:09 AM Panda has replied

  
Omnivorous
Member
Posts: 3978
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005
Member Rating: 7.3


Message 55 of 77 (598816)
01-02-2011 11:01 PM


Isn't It Ironic?
Hey guys.
I've seen sick at home since Xmas week. My wife is at an artists' colony until mid January, and it's me, the kittens and antibiotics against the world till then.
I'm headed into the hospital tomorrow morning by ambulance--woo-hoo. Definitely can't drive.
Hopefully, they'll have a proposed surgical solution, fast. They'll probably keep me at least a little while (days), so I'm not sure when I'll have net access again.
My will to live ain't enough, here: I have a long meandering fistular track (tunneling tiny bacterial focks), an enormous abscess in my, erm, left upper leg and, apparently, communication between somewhere in my intestines (probably lower colon) and bladder, since my urine is now dark tea brown and foul. Also, my shingles are flaring.
Plenty of narcotics, so I won't stay long. My attitude is Mat Hatter good.
Everybody pile up where you were, Sibyl, Spooky and Grace, and purr me back to sleep.


Dost thou think, because thou art virtuous, there shall be no more cakes and ale?
-Shakespeare
Real things always push back.
-William James

Replies to this message:
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Panda
Member (Idle past 3713 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 56 of 77 (598818)
01-02-2011 11:11 PM
Reply to: Message 55 by Omnivorous
01-02-2011 11:01 PM


Re: Isn't It Ironic?
I hope they fix you up quick sharp.
Until then, be strong and hopefully you will be back spamming this forum soon.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by Omnivorous, posted 01-02-2011 11:01 PM Omnivorous has not replied

  
Dogmafood
Member (Idle past 348 days)
Posts: 1815
From: Ontario Canada
Joined: 08-04-2010


Message 57 of 77 (599052)
01-04-2011 7:16 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by lyx2no
01-01-2011 12:26 PM


Re: Qi*
I don't know if anyone is still interested in this conversation but it has stuck with me the last couple days. I am in partial agreement with you but not altogether.
There's more than one way to believe in magic
I take your point but...there is no magic. We either understand something or we do not or it didn’t actually happen.
I found the rest of the video with the Jedi master guy. It runs for an hour but adds an essential context if you are interested. Of much greater interest is when they show an operation to remove a brain tumour (about the 12 min mark). They use a combination of acupuncture and drugs to anaesthetize the patient. The interesting thing is that they only use 50% of the drugs that they would use in a western hospital. This seems to be a rather substantial effect to be caused by something that does not exist.
Qi has not been demonstrated in a millennium even in the scientists' 'chirographs' and there is no sign of a mechanism by which it could function if it does exist.
Electromagnetic field? Dark energy? Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence as the saying goes. This belief has been held by millions of people for 2500 yrs or so. I am aware of the fallacy of popularity but why is there such a lack of PCDBC trials? We have certainly researched alot of other things that seem to only exist in peoples minds.
And remember how we came to be. We evolved under the physics of the Universe. Evolution didn't invent color. It was there and we adopted it.
This is true but how long did it take life to adopt it? Antibiotics existed long before we utilized them. How did the learned medical community first react to the idea of keeping the hospital clean? Perhaps this is the manifestation of our brains reacting to something that is there.
Where in the Universe is that Qi storehouse?
Apparently just below your navel. {ABE; or in your case, just above your brain }
Edited by Dogmafood, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by lyx2no, posted 01-01-2011 12:26 PM lyx2no has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 59 by Panda, posted 01-04-2011 8:37 PM Dogmafood has not replied
 Message 60 by Phage0070, posted 01-06-2011 5:01 PM Dogmafood has replied
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Dogmafood
Member (Idle past 348 days)
Posts: 1815
From: Ontario Canada
Joined: 08-04-2010


Message 58 of 77 (599056)
01-04-2011 7:21 PM
Reply to: Message 55 by Omnivorous
01-02-2011 11:01 PM


Re: Isn't It Ironic?
Plenty of narcotics...
Ahhh...narcotics. Attitude with horsepower.
Be well.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by Omnivorous, posted 01-02-2011 11:01 PM Omnivorous has not replied

  
Panda
Member (Idle past 3713 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 59 of 77 (599078)
01-04-2011 8:37 PM
Reply to: Message 57 by Dogmafood
01-04-2011 7:16 PM


Re: Qi*
Dogmafood writes:
why is there such a lack of PCDBC trials? We have certainly researched alot of other things that seem to only exist in peoples minds.
My (mostly cynical) answer is in 3 parts...
1) There is no money in placebo treatments. You can't patent a 'non-treatment'.
2) There is lots of money in selling fake treatments / faith healing / snake oils.
3) There actually is research happening, but science has a certain 'inertia' that requires time to overcome.
Dogmafood writes:
How did the learned medical community first react to the idea of keeping the hospital clean?
How they reacted supports my third comment.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by Dogmafood, posted 01-04-2011 7:16 PM Dogmafood has not replied

  
Phage0070
Inactive Member


Message 60 of 77 (599356)
01-06-2011 5:01 PM
Reply to: Message 57 by Dogmafood
01-04-2011 7:16 PM


Re: Qi*
Dogmafood writes:
Of much greater interest is when they show an operation to remove a brain tumour (about the 12 min mark). They use a combination of acupuncture and drugs to anaesthetize the patient. The interesting thing is that they only use 50% of the drugs that they would use in a western hospital. This seems to be a rather substantial effect to be caused by something that does not exist.
The brain doesn't have any nerves that are capable of transmitting pain, or the sensation of touch. Someone could scoop out a section of your brain and you wouldn't feel a thing (besides whatever neurological consequences it has). In fact brain surgery is typically performed with only topical anesthetic to dull the pain of cutting and peeling back the scalp, but with the patient otherwise wide awake so that functional tests can be performed to help prevent brain damage.
This is common knowledge, and you only have yourself to blame for not doing your homework.
Dogmafood writes:
This belief has been held by millions of people for 2500 yrs or so. I am aware of the fallacy of popularity but why is there such a lack of PCDBC trials?
Because everyone with a brain and the credibility to perform a proper test already knows its bullshit, and the scam artists performing the acts know it as well. Its only slack-jawed yokels like yourself who still believe it has testable merit.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by Dogmafood, posted 01-04-2011 7:16 PM Dogmafood has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 61 by Dogmafood, posted 01-07-2011 7:24 PM Phage0070 has replied

  
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