Did the Biblical Exodus ever happen?

Sheesh Buz, I even quoted the whole passage in the very post you are replying to.In the fable they do not escape because ... wait for it ... wait for it ...God tells them to turn back so that he can show off to the Egyptians.

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1 Then the LORD said to Moses, 2 "Tell the Israelites to turn back and encamp near Pi Hahiroth, between Migdol and the sea. They are to encamp by the sea, directly opposite Baal Zephon. 3 Pharaoh will think, 'The Israelites are wandering around the land in confusion, hemmed in by the desert.' 4 And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and he will pursue them. But I will gain glory for myself through Pharaoh and all his army, and the Egyptians will know that I am the LORD." So the Israelites did this.

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5 When the king of Egypt was told that the people had fled, Pharaoh and his officials changed their minds about them and said, "What have we done? We have let the Israelites go and have lost their services!" 6 So he had his chariot made ready and took his army with him. 7 He took six hundred of the best chariots, along with all the other chariots of Egypt, with officers over all of them. 8 The LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh king of Egypt, so that he pursued the Israelites, who were marching out boldly. 9 The Egyptiansall Pharaoh's horses and chariots, horsemen and troopspursued the Israelites and overtook them as they camped by the sea near Pi Hahiroth, opposite Baal Zephon.

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Hemmed in by the desert Buz.No wadi. No mention of some pass. Room for more than 600 chariots to maneuver.

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Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

Did you even read my explanations as to why this is nonsense? [/qs]In addition, the rock claimed as the rock at Horeb is not at all unusual and I provided many links to similar split rock formations from all over the world.[/qs]These other formations are straw-men examples, Jar. They have no corroborating relationship to the region in this discussion nor do they have anything resembling a waterflow. Even if they did, what would it prove relative to this debate?

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BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The Immeasurable Present Eternally Extends the Infinite Past And Infinitely Consumes The Eternal Future.
Time Relates To What Is Temperal. What Is Eternal Is Timeless.

Yes I read your response Buz and hopefully so did others. They can look at the evidence presented and make thier own judgments.The relevance of the other formations Buz is that the supposed Rock at Horeb is not unusual, there is no evidence of water flow and such formations are common even in the area.Again, present your best evidence, and others will also present evidence. The readers can then judge whether a case has been made.

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Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

What version are you quoting from, Jar? What ever it is, it's not very literal to the Hebrew. There's a big difference between the meaning of the words, confusion and entanglement., the latter the literal. There also can be a big difference in the meaning of the words, desert and wilderness, the later, the more literal. Wilderness coupled with entanglement coupled with the context, implying that the only escape was through the seaway, coupled with all of the other corroborating evidence is indicative of entrapment.

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BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The Immeasurable Present Eternally Extends the Infinite Past And Infinitely Consumes The Eternal Future.
Time Relates To What Is Temperal. What Is Eternal Is Timeless.

I know a whole lot about Islam. I have a copy of the Koran and am aware of what it says. I also have other books as well as the Internet from which I've acquired some knowledge.I know that the Bibles have been confiscated in Saudi Arabia. It is regarded as somewhat competitive to the Quran. It is also forbidden to be propagated in the nation whereas the Quran is not.For Islamists to ascribe to the Biblical exodus, would be for them to legitimize the nation of Israel. After all, Biblically, Jehovah promised the land of Canaan to the Jews forever. No?

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BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The Immeasurable Present Eternally Extends the Infinite Past And Infinitely Consumes The Eternal Future.
Time Relates To What Is Temperal. What Is Eternal Is Timeless.

NIV

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Exodus 14

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1 Then the LORD said to Moses, 2 Tell the Israelites to turn back and encamp near Pi Hahiroth, between Migdol and the sea. They are to encamp by the sea, directly opposite Baal Zephon. 3 Pharaoh will think, ‘The Israelites are wandering around the land in confusion, hemmed in by the desert.’ 4 And I will harden Pharaoh’s heart, and he will pursue them. But I will gain glory for myself through Pharaoh and all his army, and the Egyptians will know that I am the LORD. So the Israelites did this.

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5 When the king of Egypt was told that the people had fled, Pharaoh and his officials changed their minds about them and said, What have we done? We have let the Israelites go and have lost their services! 6 So he had his chariot made ready and took his army with him. 7 He took six hundred of the best chariots, along with all the other chariots of Egypt, with officers over all of them. 8 The LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh king of Egypt, so that he pursued the Israelites, who were marching out boldly. 9 The Egyptiansall Pharaoh’s horses and chariots, horsemen and troops pursued the Israelites and overtook them as they camped by the sea near Pi Hahiroth, opposite Baal Zephon.

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But the point Buz is that it does not show a narrow area, a wadi or a valley. It does show an area where a host of chariots would be effective. It also shows that they are only there because god tells them to turn back and camp.Now there are areas that match the Biblical description as I pointed out way upthread and that is the area just at the southeastern shore of the Red Sea.As I have said, you present your best evidence, I and others will post what we see and think of it.The story of the trek in the fable begins in Chapter 13.

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Crossing the Sea
17 When Pharaoh let the people go, God did not lead them on the road through the Philistine country, though that was shorter. For God said, If they face war, they might change their minds and return to Egypt. 18 So God led the people around by the desert road toward the Red Sea. The Israelites went up out of Egypt ready for battle.

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19 Moses took the bones of Joseph with him because Joseph had made the Israelites swear an oath. He had said, God will surely come to your aid, and then you must carry my bones up with you from this place.

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20 After leaving Sukkoth they camped at Etham on the edge of the desert. 21 By day the LORD went ahead of them in a pillar of cloud to guide them on their way and by night in a pillar of fire to give them light, so that they could travel by day or night. 22 Neither the pillar of cloud by day nor the pillar of fire by night left its place in front of the people.

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So at the beginning of Chapter 14 they had just left Egypt going by way of the desert road. If you will look at a map of the area, they are traveling towards the Red Sea. They DO NOT take the road that is along the Mediterranean Sea.Your problem is to figure out how to get the folk to the so called Beach other than by magic.

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Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

Look into reading comprehension Buz. The passage is clearly saying that Pharaoh will think/assume that they are trapped, not that they actually are trapped.

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It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds
soon I discovered that this rock thing was true
Jerry Lee Lewis was the devil
Jesus was an architect previous to his career as a prophet
All of a sudden i found myself in love with the world
And so there was only one thing I could do
Was ding a ding dang my dang along ling long - Jesus Built my Hotrod Ministry
Live every week like it's Shark Week! - Tracey Jordan
Just a monkey in a long line of kings. - Matthew Good
If "elitist" just means "not the dumbest motherfucker in the room", I'll be an elitist! - Get Your War On
*not an actual doctor

You do know that Moses is a major prophet in Islam don't you? Please 'splain your reasoning here. Actually he promised it to the Israelites. I think an argument could be made that they were not Jews yet.But this story is all in the Quran. Even the idea that God(Allah) promised canaanite to the Israelites. So why would they want to discredit a story that is in their holy book? Evidently not. You might try actually reading it.Edited by Theodoric, : No reason given.

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Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

For what it's worth, Strong suggests that "entangled" means "perplexed" and that "wilderness" means "open field" or "desert".-------------If anybody's interested, hop into Google Earth's flight simulator and fly around Nuweiba Beach. It doesn't look like a place you could get a large crowd of people into easily, much less an army of chariots. On the other hand, the area around Suez suits the scenario much better.

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"I'm Rory Bellows, I tell you! And I got a lot of corroborating evidence... over here... by the throttle!"

I see that you are living down to my expectations Buz, and repeating debunked nonsense.

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Non-existent or made up?

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.The Biblical record of the Exodus said that when they reached the sea they were entrapped with the pursuing Egyptians pursuing via the only route in, implying a wadi in a narrow passage through rugged terrain.

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Made up. The Bible says no such thing.

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Duck 2. While at the sea shore there needed to be a large enough beach to accommodate a large number of people and animals. Nuweiba beach and it's surrounding terrain fits the ticket.

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As already pointed out, the real site (if there was any real event to deal with) only needs enough space to accommodate the people that really were there. Since the numbers in the Bible are almost certainly greatly exaggerated the real site appealing to those is somewhat dubious to say the least.So likely made up (in the sense that the legend grew after the fact - if there even was a fact).

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Duck 3. The alleged crossing was the most shallow part of the sea where they were entrapped.

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According to the chart produced by Wyatt supporter Lysimachus this STILL required crossing a deep area, Wyatt's "land bridge" is an artefact of the data (or rather, the ABSENCE of data). So, another dishonest argument.

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Duck 4. Photographed forms in the shapes of wheels and axles off the beach on the sea bottom.

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A few supposed wheels and axles with nothing to date them to the relevant period at all. What evidence we do have suggests a much more recent date (alleged presence of rust and therefore iron, coral growth). And that's if they contain wheels and axles at all.

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Duck 5. A split rock where water flowed from meeting the description of the record.

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The story doesn't mention the rock splitting, and we don't know that water flowed from it - that's just an assertion you've yet to provide real support for.

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Duck 6. The record says they were in the land of Midian after the crossing...

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No, it doesn't. So another case of making up evidence.

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Duck 7 ..where Mt Sinai was according to the record.

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And yet another misrepresentation of the Bible. Made up again.

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Duck 8. The top of the mountain was miraculously burnt by an act of God. Acclaimed Mt Sinai has a blackened top.

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...which may well be due to geology, not burning as you know.

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Duck 9. Moses encounters the father of his wives in the land of Midian, according to the record.

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The 4th misrepresentation of the Bible. Really Buz, why do you keep repeating these after getting caught already in this thread ?
Made up again.

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Duck 10. A blacked top mountain acclaimed by explorers not to be volcanic, meeting the location of the record.

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A repeat of Duck 8. And the bit about matching the location is...made up.

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Duck 11. Rock inscriptions of bulls horses or cows indicative to occupation at some time by people at the base of the mountain.

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Evidence of occupation at some time is not evidence of the Exodus.

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Duck 12. A large plain at the foot of the mountain suitable for a sojourn for the large assembly and where they worshipped the golden calf while Moses was on the mountain receiving the commandment stones. etc.

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That is hardly evidence that the story really happened. At best it would be weak evidence for the location - which you claim that the mountain already matches. The only reason you need it is because you weren't telling the truth then...

Bluescat48, who I was originally replying to, said that time and locality wouldn't prove any connection. If chariot wheels were the only evidence one had then that would be true, but it is rare for any single piece of evidence to prove anything, and the fact of the matter is that time and locality *are* a connection.After a few posts the original argument is often lost. What I originally said back in Message 162 was that finding "chariot wheels" (plural) at a plausible time and location would be consistent with the Exodus, not that it would be corroborating evidence, and that the accumulation of additional evidence of things like encampments and so forth might eventually require one to concede that the Exodus might plausibly have happened.Buz should be given credit for trying to weave together a fabric of consistent evidence supporting the Exodus. Unfortunately Buz is unable to recognize valid evidence, but my point is that if there were actual evidence supporting the Exodus then it wouldn't be valid to consider each fact in isolation and dismiss it simply because by itself it didn't prove the Exodus. To emphasize again, there are few things proven by a single fact.--Percy

Were the Saudis confiscating Old Testaments? Or were they perhaps confiscating the normal western Bibles we're all familiar with that contain both Old and *New* Testaments?As Theodoric has been trying to explain to you, Moses is a revered figure in Islam.But Muslims would find the New Testament claim that Jesus is the son of God objectionable. The Koran even states at one point, "Allah is but one God. Allah forbid that he should have a son!" (4:171, look it up in you Koran). However, Islam does revere Jesus as a prophet.--Percy

PaulK responded more thoroughly, so I'll just respond to this: Mt. Sinai has a blackened top? You mean this Mt. Sinai? Here's a Google satellite photo, Mount Sinai is in the center: Mount Sinai looks much like all the other mountains in the region.The Google article on Mount Sinai doesn't mention a blackened top.Or are you talking about Ron Wyatt's Mount Sinai?--Percy

I think he's talking about Wyatt's "Sinai", he's been doing that for this entire thread anyway.

Huntard says you're talking about Wyatt's Mount Sinai, so here's where Wyatt says Mount Sinai is: Here's the Google satellite photo of the area: There's a whole bunch of mountains in the area, and none of them look particularly blackened in comparison to any others. Which one is Mount Sinai?--Percy