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Author Topic:   Evolving the Musculoskeletal System
ICdesign
Member (Idle past 4797 days)
Posts: 360
From: Phoenix Arizona USA
Joined: 03-10-2007


Message 454 of 527 (599649)
01-09-2011 4:14 PM
Reply to: Message 453 by cavediver
01-09-2011 4:00 PM


cavediver writes:
Where is the source of this information???
The source is a computer program designed by an intelligent mind.
Would the antenna design exist if you took intelligent man out of the equation? Yes or no?
Is information alone enough to create a material system? yes or no?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 453 by cavediver, posted 01-09-2011 4:00 PM cavediver has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 458 by cavediver, posted 01-09-2011 4:38 PM ICdesign has replied
 Message 460 by subbie, posted 01-09-2011 4:59 PM ICdesign has replied

  
ICdesign
Member (Idle past 4797 days)
Posts: 360
From: Phoenix Arizona USA
Joined: 03-10-2007


Message 455 of 527 (599652)
01-09-2011 4:21 PM
Reply to: Message 450 by Percy
01-09-2011 2:44 PM


Percy writes:
I write design software for a living. Your computer uses chips designed using software that I helped write. I specialize in the areas of logic simulation and timing analysis. I am intimately familiar with how both computer hardware and software work, and I will not steer you wrong.
Then you should know without me having to point out such a simple truth.
Would a computer or a computer program exist without an intelligent mind such as yours? yes or no?
Although you have been asked to address how you tell when something has "intentional purpose," you've never answered. A watering hole on the Savannah has the purpose of providing water for the animals in the area. How do you know whether that purpose was "intentional" or not? Is it just a case of you can't explain "intentional purpose," but you know it when you see it? If so then you need to develop some scientific criteria for establishing when something has "intentional purpose" or not
Does your heart have an intentional purpose?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 450 by Percy, posted 01-09-2011 2:44 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 456 by jar, posted 01-09-2011 4:30 PM ICdesign has not replied
 Message 459 by Panda, posted 01-09-2011 4:46 PM ICdesign has replied
 Message 465 by Percy, posted 01-09-2011 5:55 PM ICdesign has replied

  
ICdesign
Member (Idle past 4797 days)
Posts: 360
From: Phoenix Arizona USA
Joined: 03-10-2007


Message 461 of 527 (599668)
01-09-2011 5:35 PM
Reply to: Message 459 by Panda
01-09-2011 4:46 PM


Percy posted a detailed, considerate post.
I am wondering why you decided to ignore most of it, and simply cherry pick a couple of random points.
Because I am not interested in debating a chapter of information. That's why.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 459 by Panda, posted 01-09-2011 4:46 PM Panda has not replied

  
ICdesign
Member (Idle past 4797 days)
Posts: 360
From: Phoenix Arizona USA
Joined: 03-10-2007


Message 462 of 527 (599669)
01-09-2011 5:44 PM
Reply to: Message 458 by cavediver
01-09-2011 4:38 PM


Wrong - the design of the antenna does not exist in the computer programme.
The antenna was generated by a computer program.
Irrelevant - I have already addressed this in my previous post - from where does the antenna design originate?
Maybe its irrelevant to you but not to the truth. Would the antenna exist if intelligence was taken out of the equation? Yes or no? That is the relevant question.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 458 by cavediver, posted 01-09-2011 4:38 PM cavediver has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 466 by cavediver, posted 01-09-2011 5:56 PM ICdesign has replied
 Message 473 by Dr Adequate, posted 01-09-2011 11:05 PM ICdesign has not replied

  
ICdesign
Member (Idle past 4797 days)
Posts: 360
From: Phoenix Arizona USA
Joined: 03-10-2007


Message 463 of 527 (599670)
01-09-2011 5:47 PM
Reply to: Message 460 by subbie
01-09-2011 4:59 PM


Are you still obtusely missing the point, yes or no?
No. I seem to be the only one around here able to grasp the relevant questions.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 460 by subbie, posted 01-09-2011 4:59 PM subbie has seen this message but not replied

  
ICdesign
Member (Idle past 4797 days)
Posts: 360
From: Phoenix Arizona USA
Joined: 03-10-2007


Message 464 of 527 (599671)
01-09-2011 5:48 PM
Reply to: Message 457 by Coyote
01-09-2011 4:35 PM


Who designed these stalactites and stalagmites?
All design comes from the same source. God

This message is a reply to:
 Message 457 by Coyote, posted 01-09-2011 4:35 PM Coyote has not replied

  
ICdesign
Member (Idle past 4797 days)
Posts: 360
From: Phoenix Arizona USA
Joined: 03-10-2007


Message 467 of 527 (599675)
01-09-2011 6:02 PM
Reply to: Message 466 by cavediver
01-09-2011 5:56 PM


We're not interested in the antenna but ion the design of the antenna.
OK then. Would the design of the antenna exist if you took intelligent mind out of the equation?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 466 by cavediver, posted 01-09-2011 5:56 PM cavediver has not replied

  
ICdesign
Member (Idle past 4797 days)
Posts: 360
From: Phoenix Arizona USA
Joined: 03-10-2007


Message 468 of 527 (599677)
01-09-2011 6:17 PM
Reply to: Message 465 by Percy
01-09-2011 5:55 PM


Hi Percy,
Your point was that a simulation of a natural process means that that process is itself intelligent.
No that isn't my point exactly. My point is that all computer related products are an extension of an intelligent source. Simulations are an extension of an intelligent mind. Anything done on a computer would not exist if you took the intelligent mind out of the equation. Do you now understand?
I'll have to come back to the other points you reposted later.
Do you think your heart has an intentional purpose?
I much prefer a point or two at a time.
Thanks,
IC

This message is a reply to:
 Message 465 by Percy, posted 01-09-2011 5:55 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 469 by Percy, posted 01-09-2011 7:23 PM ICdesign has replied
 Message 470 by Coragyps, posted 01-09-2011 7:25 PM ICdesign has not replied

  
ICdesign
Member (Idle past 4797 days)
Posts: 360
From: Phoenix Arizona USA
Joined: 03-10-2007


Message 471 of 527 (599689)
01-09-2011 8:11 PM
Reply to: Message 469 by Percy
01-09-2011 7:23 PM


Percy writes:
but what you're saying now is irrelevant to this discussion. You were trying to claim that simulating a natural process like evolution means that that process was created by an intelligence.
No, it isn't irrelevant to this discussion and I did not change the point I have been making the entire time. Think about what you are saying Percy. How can you simulate a process void of intelligence using an intelligent mind to create the simulation on equipment of intelligent design. That is a double oxymoron.
Let's not introduce new topics like whether the heart has "intentional purpose"
Well you were all ready to talk about it 2 or 3 posts ago when the drinking hole was your example.
My suggestion would be to pick up the Mr. Chance/Mr. Selection discussion that we were having.
I'm not into investing all the time and effort it would take to go down that road. The issues of complex systems with intentional purposes cut more to the heart of the matter than Mr. no brain and Mr. no ability to recognize a beneficial mutation if it were staring him in the face.
Edited by ICdesign, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 469 by Percy, posted 01-09-2011 7:23 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 472 by ZenMonkey, posted 01-09-2011 10:48 PM ICdesign has not replied
 Message 474 by crashfrog, posted 01-10-2011 12:31 AM ICdesign has not replied
 Message 475 by Percy, posted 01-10-2011 8:00 AM ICdesign has replied
 Message 476 by Dr Adequate, posted 01-10-2011 9:03 AM ICdesign has not replied

  
ICdesign
Member (Idle past 4797 days)
Posts: 360
From: Phoenix Arizona USA
Joined: 03-10-2007


Message 477 of 527 (599746)
01-10-2011 11:48 AM
Reply to: Message 475 by Percy
01-10-2011 8:00 AM


Percy writes:
I can write a simulation of a marble rolling down an inclined plain, but neither the marble nor the inclined plane nor gravity has any intelligence or "intentional purpose."
Righting a simulation based on known laws of physics is one thing. A program written on a computer that produces an antenna after a bunch a brilliant scientists imput a bunch of information does nothing to prove that evolution was capable of producing complex systems that perform meaningful purposes.
we're discussing whether evolution requires intelligence, not simulations.
And the answer is yes. We know in the real world that you cannot achieve building a complex system without the aid of intelligence. You cannot simulate a THEORY that took place without intelligence. Its impossible!
Without a computer the antenna has no place to develop, correct?
A watering hole on the Savannah has the purpose of providing water for the animals in the area. How do you know whether that purpose was "intentional" or not?
Just because water gathered in a hole from rain storms doesn't prove anything other than it rained. That is called subjective purpose. It would exist whether animals drank from it or not.
The heart has an objective purpose. It has the obvious sole purpose of pumping blood to the body and that is all it does. That makes it intentional. In order to show it is not intentional you have to show other reasons why it would exist.
Edited by ICdesign, : No reason given.
Edited by ICdesign, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 475 by Percy, posted 01-10-2011 8:00 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 478 by Dr Adequate, posted 01-10-2011 12:36 PM ICdesign has not replied
 Message 479 by Percy, posted 01-10-2011 3:34 PM ICdesign has replied
 Message 480 by Taq, posted 01-10-2011 3:49 PM ICdesign has not replied

  
ICdesign
Member (Idle past 4797 days)
Posts: 360
From: Phoenix Arizona USA
Joined: 03-10-2007


Message 481 of 527 (599884)
01-11-2011 12:28 PM
Reply to: Message 479 by Percy
01-10-2011 3:34 PM


Percy writes:
The approach used
Think about that phrase for a second Percy. The entire project to gain the design of the antenna was lead by a predetermined goal. To intentionally use all the knowledge and tools at their disposal to "create" a better antenna. How can you possibly call this simulating evolution?
Just as a weather forecasting program might employ a simulated model of the weather to make predictions, an antennae design program might employ a simulated model of evolution to produce designs. But neither the weather nor evolution requires an intelligence.
What does weather have to do with the theory of evolution?
A weather simulation is based on known laws of physics.
Evolution is based on a theory that has never been observed and in fact goes against known laws of physics.
If stalactites and stalagmites that are created by the dripping of mineralized water were actually designed by God (see your Message 464), then isn't a watering hole also designed by God. And doesn't anything designed by God have "objective intentional purpose?"
Just because something has been created by God doesn't necessarily mean it has an objective intentional purpose. Rain has an objective intentional purpose but that doesn't mean every puddle from the rain has an objective intentional purpose.
In my opinion this is you just hiding behind more smoke and mirrors. Has nothing to do with being a Marine or having a fighting spirit, I'm just calling 'em as I see 'em.
The issue is whether or not the heart has an objective purpose. All it does is pump blood so you can live. If it did not exist neither would you. How much more intentional can anything be?
There are only two choices. It just happened to show up in the exact place performing the exact function mandatory for life or someone put it there on purpose.
If you have the enormous faith to believe in the miracle that it just happened along, you do so at your own intellectual suicide. When you ad all the systems mandatory for life besides the circulatory system....well, its way beyond having your head in the sand. I'm thinking your head would have to be somewhere else entirely to believe such a fantasy.
The problem you're having is that you didn't arrive at your position through reasoning,....You believe what you believe because it feels right to you, not because you've done any analysis of real world evidence.
My views and conclusions make compete rational sense.
You live in a fantasy world of illusion.
I think its time to pick up my marbles and go home. This is like playing against a player using square marbles.
Later,
IC

This message is a reply to:
 Message 479 by Percy, posted 01-10-2011 3:34 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 482 by Percy, posted 01-11-2011 1:26 PM ICdesign has replied
 Message 483 by Theodoric, posted 01-11-2011 1:42 PM ICdesign has not replied
 Message 484 by Dr Adequate, posted 01-11-2011 2:23 PM ICdesign has replied

  
ICdesign
Member (Idle past 4797 days)
Posts: 360
From: Phoenix Arizona USA
Joined: 03-10-2007


Message 485 of 527 (599903)
01-11-2011 2:27 PM
Reply to: Message 482 by Percy
01-11-2011 1:26 PM


Percy writes:
This means they began with an initial population of antennae designs.
Oh, you mean those antennae that were intelligently designed? You mean those ID antennae that were then intelligently written into the intelligently designed computer program on the intelligently designed computer? You mean those antennas? Oh, I see what you mean now. Yes, very evolutionary.
The antennae designs were assessed for performance
How do you assess performance without using intelligence again?
All you have is antenna that were generated by a man-made computer. Nothing more.
and it illustrates the power of the evolutionary approach.
No it does not. It illustrates the ingenuity of intelligent man.
Evolution has been observed in both nature and the lab
Show me where life was created from nothing and then show me where complex systems have developed by themselves. If this had been observed evolution would not be called a theory.
Mutations that develop different shapes and hard spots is not a demonstration of new systems developing functions.
[qs]If the watering hole on the savanna didn't exist then the animals using the watering hole wouldn't exist, either[/.qs]
And? ......What about the hole with water that is never used by an animal?
Science believes the heart evolved in the same way way that all other structures evolved
No, evolutionary scientists believe this. Its is a belief of a bias community. Belief is not science.
one little step at a time through descent with modification filtered by natural selection.
This is a theory not science.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 482 by Percy, posted 01-11-2011 1:26 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 488 by Huntard, posted 01-11-2011 2:43 PM ICdesign has replied
 Message 490 by Dr Adequate, posted 01-11-2011 3:06 PM ICdesign has replied
 Message 497 by Theodoric, posted 01-11-2011 3:47 PM ICdesign has not replied
 Message 507 by Percy, posted 01-12-2011 3:16 AM ICdesign has not replied
 Message 509 by bluescat48, posted 01-12-2011 10:05 AM ICdesign has not replied

  
ICdesign
Member (Idle past 4797 days)
Posts: 360
From: Phoenix Arizona USA
Joined: 03-10-2007


Message 487 of 527 (599906)
01-11-2011 2:32 PM
Reply to: Message 484 by Dr Adequate
01-11-2011 2:23 PM


Who designed the antenna?
A computer generated the design.
However many times you ask the question, the answer is the same.
Evolution does not have a computer.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 484 by Dr Adequate, posted 01-11-2011 2:23 PM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 489 by Dr Adequate, posted 01-11-2011 2:58 PM ICdesign has not replied
 Message 491 by Taq, posted 01-11-2011 3:27 PM ICdesign has replied

  
ICdesign
Member (Idle past 4797 days)
Posts: 360
From: Phoenix Arizona USA
Joined: 03-10-2007


Message 492 of 527 (599917)
01-11-2011 3:33 PM
Reply to: Message 488 by Huntard
01-11-2011 2:43 PM


Huntard writes:
We're talking about evolution. You do know evolution is only about the development of life once it exists, right?
Yes, but when you are talking about the development of existence you have to start at the beginning of that existence do you not. That is why I include it.
For example, gravity is considered a theory in science.
No, gravity is not a theory, its a fact. The reasons of how it exists is the part that is a theory.
Micro- Evolution is based on observed science.
Macro-Evolution is nothing more that a theory (an unproven guess)
It is the first step on the way to a new system or function. Sadly, we don't live long enough to observe an entire new system form.
And this is one of your contradictions that I still haven't figured out. You claim their are no incomplete systems because an organism cannot survive with an incomplete system, correct? Yet there would have to be many incomplete stages between the first step and a complete system, correct? ie; "we don't live long enough to observe an entire new system form."
Where is this system all this time?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 488 by Huntard, posted 01-11-2011 2:43 PM Huntard has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 498 by Huntard, posted 01-11-2011 3:57 PM ICdesign has replied
 Message 499 by Dr Adequate, posted 01-11-2011 4:20 PM ICdesign has not replied
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ICdesign
Member (Idle past 4797 days)
Posts: 360
From: Phoenix Arizona USA
Joined: 03-10-2007


Message 493 of 527 (599918)
01-11-2011 3:36 PM
Reply to: Message 491 by Taq
01-11-2011 3:27 PM


What did the computer generate the design from?
A program designed by intelligent people.
But it does have life that competes for limited resources which is all that evolution needs
.
This designs nothing. This builds nothing.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 491 by Taq, posted 01-11-2011 3:27 PM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 496 by Taq, posted 01-11-2011 3:44 PM ICdesign has not replied

  
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