|
Register | Sign In |
|
QuickSearch
EvC Forum active members: 64 (9164 total) |
| |
ChatGPT | |
Total: 916,784 Year: 4,041/9,624 Month: 912/974 Week: 239/286 Day: 0/46 Hour: 0/0 |
Thread ▼ Details |
|
Thread Info
|
|
|
Author | Topic: Evil Muslim conspiracy... | |||||||||||||||||||||||
onifre Member (Idle past 2977 days) Posts: 4854 From: Dark Side of the Moon Joined: |
I was able to look at thelinks, other than the "Missing Imam" the other is just called "imam" by who ever wrote the news article. But in the following sentence is refered to as simply a 'cleric'.
The "missing imam" is a different story. Googling I found this:
quote: Became known as Imam, not, given the title of Imam because it was thought he was an actual Imam of the House of the Prophet, like Khomeini. - Oni
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
onifre Member (Idle past 2977 days) Posts: 4854 From: Dark Side of the Moon Joined: |
No, look, it's from an article on Shi'a doctrine, and it says:
No, Dr. A, that is not from the Shi'a doctrine. Here is where you got that from, and you were selective as to what you quoted, hopefully, unintentionally. Here is the right quote:
quote: What you quoted was the etymology of the word "imam." From the wiki link:
quote: The Shi'a doctrine that I quoted is clear, Imams are the true Caliphs and rightful successors of the Prophet, and applicable to only those members of the House of the Prophet. As it says, these different view points are what distinguishes Sunni from Shi'a. Further more - as I have repeatedly said and provided links for this - no other Iranian cleric has been given such a title of Imam, other than Khomeini. And other than him, you have only shown me a vague reference in an article and one other man who simply became known as Imam. Who then went missing.
Sourcequote: Also, Iranian's believed he was the 12th Imam.
quote: He didn't claim to be the Mahdi, millions of people believed he was. He didn't give himself the title of Imam, since that is a title in the Shi'a doctrine held for only for those members of the House of the Prophet. He was given that title because it was believed he was the Mahdi, the 12th Imam of the House of the Prophet. Given all this information, how do you see it now? - Oni
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
onifre Member (Idle past 2977 days) Posts: 4854 From: Dark Side of the Moon Joined: |
Because what I quoted makes it clear that even Shi'ites, even Twelver Shi'ites, even Usuli Twelver Shi'ites can call someone an imam without saying that he is the second coming of the Mahdi. What you quoted was the etymology of the word Imam, Dr. A. I quoted the actual Shi'a doctrine that explained it is only in reference to the 12 Imams of the House of the Prophet. If they OFTEN name clerics Imam, then you should be able to find more proof than just a vague reference in an article and a guy who became known as imam. There would be, as you claim, thousands. Like for the Sunni's. But you have no other evidence to support the claim, no other clerics named imam.
But there is nothing in Islam per se that requires devotion to any particular person; and you are wrong.
My position is that an Imam, for the Shi'a, as the Doctrine I quoted explains, is considered infallible. On that point, I am right. You quoting the etymology of the word imam doesn't trump the actual Shi'a doctrine which states that very thing. I don't care about devotion, my point has always been infallibility. - Oni
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
onifre Member (Idle past 2977 days) Posts: 4854 From: Dark Side of the Moon Joined: |
Another link I foud that supports my position: Source
quote: Like other Shi'ites, they reserve the Imam position for only those descendants of Al ibn Ab Ṭlib ...not just any old dude. C'mon good Dr., you rarely ever loose one, you can admit this one. - Oni
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
onifre Member (Idle past 2977 days) Posts: 4854 From: Dark Side of the Moon Joined: |
No. The usage.
Is this not what you quoted:
quote: From wiki...? It says etymology, so I just assumed it was the etymology. Why else then would it say etymology?
Yeah, look, how much work should I have to do? I did a quick look round for the words "shiite imam" and I found references to people who aren't Khomeini, this proving your current argument wrong, and who is dead and therefore doesn't apply to your original argument.
This is crazy talk. My point was that Shi'a reserve the name Imam to those of the House of the Prophet, which the Shi'a doctrine confirms:
quote: Which it seems the evidence favors my position. I also said that Imam's are considered infallible:
quote: And the evidence confirms that too. I also said Iranins have never given the title Imam to anyone before or after Khomeini, a title only reserved for the 12 Imam's:
quote: And that too is confirmed. Other than those 3 points, I have stated nothing else. Where am I wrong? Not that I can't be, it just seems from the evidence that what I've argued for is supported. - Oni
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
onifre Member (Idle past 2977 days) Posts: 4854 From: Dark Side of the Moon Joined: |
But there is nothing in those religions that says that you have to so identify some random person such as me as the Mahdi/Pope/Second Coming/Messiah.
And I have not!, even in the quote you provide, said that anyone HAS TO believe any of this crap. But the fact remains that, even if you don't believe the Pope is infallible, Catholic doctrine still says he is. Likewise, you don't have to believe that an Imam is infallible, but Shi'a doctrine still says they are. The Pope is infallible. Imam's in the Shi'a branch are considered infallible. My arguement has never been that anyone actually has to believe that they are, just that the doctrines of these specific religions say they are. And these are the only two current, active religions who have infallible authorites. Which again brings me back to my original point, the religion can promote violence as a resolution to problems, but that doesn't mean that the muslims themselves are violent because of it. As you say, and I agree, no one has to believe what the religion's leaders preach. Where am I mistaken in any of the above? - Oni
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
onifre Member (Idle past 2977 days) Posts: 4854 From: Dark Side of the Moon Joined: |
But there is nothing in Shi'a doctrine saying that you are the Imam There is nothing in Catholic doctrine that says you are the Pope. One just gets selected (by whatever criteria a Pope is selected.) Then, his title comes with infallibility. Seems like the same method for an Imam in the Shi'a doctrine. They are waiting for the 12th one to show up, and, by whatever criteria is used, it will then be determined if you are the 12th Imam. Which, in the case of Khomeini, it was. Then, his title comes with infallibility. Not that anyone has to believe that crap though, that I agree with.
Oh, that was your point? What a strange way you have of making it.
Yes, well, Rahvin got my point just fine, back when I was still making that point. Then you jumped in and said Shi'a Imams aren't considered infallible, and here we are. You have since conceded that they are, so - Oni
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
onifre Member (Idle past 2977 days) Posts: 4854 From: Dark Side of the Moon Joined: |
No, the Pope is not, generally, infallible. "...in everything he says." You needed to finish that statement. Only when he is in his "chair" as you said. But that means when he is in the official "Pope" position. In other words, if he eats a burger and says: "This is the best burger ever," that is not an infallible statement.
Sourcequote: Pop quiz: When was the last time those circumstances happened?
When he said you were ghey. - Oni
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
onifre Member (Idle past 2977 days) Posts: 4854 From: Dark Side of the Moon Joined: |
You are wrong to claim that "Catholicism says that the Pope is infallible". Its more correct that he can be infallible, under certain specific circumstances.
Ah ok, cool. Correction noted. But reading the ex cathedra, the church places the decision on the Pope as to when he decides to be infallible.
So, really, the Pope is only infallible about 0.00001% of the time. The Pope's have only decided to be infallible about 0.00001% of the time. - Oni
|
|
|
Do Nothing Button
Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved
Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024