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Author Topic:   Does Neo-Darwinian evolution require change ?
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2134 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 9 of 114 (600738)
01-16-2011 8:26 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by slevesque
01-16-2011 8:05 PM


It brings up two issues. First, living fossils, where a species appears in the fossil record millions of years ago, dissapears, and is found alive and almost identical today.
I think if you check into this you will find that these examples of living fossils are not the same species as the original fossils. For example, the fossil record for Coelacanth includes eight families of extinct critters and one family that is mostly extinct (six separate genera are extinct). A single new genus within that family has two separate species, both attributed to modern specimens. All in all, about 25 genera and a whole lot of species of Coelacanth are extinct, and one genus and two species are still holding on. The modern ones are not even in the same genus as the others, and most aren't even in the same family.
See the Wiki article
Second, one of the two great trends in the fossil record, according to Gould, is stasis (the other being the sudden appearance of new species). Meaning that once species appear in the fossil record, they remina largely unchanged until they dissapear.
This is not an accurate description of Gould's position. Species remain largely unchanged for long periods of time when there is little change in their environment. When their environment changes they either adapt to it or go extinct. The faster the environment changes the more pressure there is for species to change, and the greater chance for either 1) change that we later classify as a new species, or 2) extinction. (Lots of species have "disappeared" by changing to a new species.)
So what I'm asking is: Is this even possible if Neo-Darwinism is the mechanism of evolution ?
As your examples are incorrect, this is moot.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by slevesque, posted 01-16-2011 8:05 PM slevesque has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by slevesque, posted 01-17-2011 4:00 AM Coyote has not replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2134 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 27 of 114 (600935)
01-17-2011 8:22 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by slevesque
01-17-2011 7:42 PM


Re: Eldredge & Gould -- stasis is stasis because ...
I understand all these, but I don't see how it answers what I'm asking. Which is that given the high mutation rates, how can it stay at that optimal peak when every single offspring will have inherited so many mutation (the majority deleterious, most only very slightly). Whichever one natural selection ''chooses'', it will still be less fit then it's parents were.
As I said, any mutation rate over 1pipg seems to be forcing the population from the optimal peak, with natural selection slowing down the drift but unable to stop it. In fact I have difficulty imagining how any species could sustain the mutational burdain of such high rates.
Your scenario results in all species going extinct, so obviously it is incorrect as total extinction is not supported by the evidence (several million extant species).
Related point: are you thinking of this scenario with old or young earth in mind?

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by slevesque, posted 01-17-2011 7:42 PM slevesque has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by slevesque, posted 01-18-2011 3:32 PM Coyote has replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2134 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 59 of 114 (601125)
01-18-2011 8:50 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by slevesque
01-18-2011 3:32 PM


Re: Eldredge & Gould -- stasis is stasis because ...
Since I do think the ratio is not so good, and that the high mutation rates should be leading all species towards extinction, and that this fits right in with my YEC position.
YEC. There is the problem.
The empirical evidence overwhelmingly supports an old earth, with life starting some billions of years ago.
That evidence is absolutely incompatible with the idea of this genetic meltdown in a few hundred generations.
Put simply, if the genome hasn't melted down in 3+ billion years, we don't need to worry about it.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by slevesque, posted 01-18-2011 3:32 PM slevesque has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 60 by jar, posted 01-18-2011 8:53 PM Coyote has replied
 Message 72 by slevesque, posted 01-19-2011 3:51 PM Coyote has not replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2134 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 61 of 114 (601129)
01-18-2011 9:14 PM
Reply to: Message 60 by jar
01-18-2011 8:53 PM


Re: Eldredge & Gould -- stasis is stasis because ...
There has not even been much change in the Genome of most anything since the time of Adam.
Adam is a myth.
And you're right, very little change.
Edited by Coyote, : No reason given.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by jar, posted 01-18-2011 8:53 PM jar has seen this message but not replied

  
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