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Author Topic:   Does Neo-Darwinian evolution require change ?
jar
Member (Idle past 419 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 4 of 114 (600720)
01-16-2011 5:28 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by slevesque
01-16-2011 4:49 PM


How much does a selection cost?
Cost of selection obviously limits natural selection from ever keeping up with all these new mutations.
Huh?
Add to that the fact that the majority of mutations have very small effects and so, if they ever reach fixation, it will be through random genetic drift. Which makes it extremely improbable that any species will just have fixed mutations who revert back to the previous mutation, etc.
Huh?
Why?
And even if true, so what?
Further, what does the topic title even mean? What exactly is "NeoDarwinian evolution"? What was "Neo-Darwinian evolution" then years ago? How about a quarter century ago?
Theories get changed whenever new information becomes available. That is why Theories are so strong and powerful.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by slevesque, posted 01-16-2011 4:49 PM slevesque has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by slevesque, posted 01-16-2011 7:52 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 419 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 8 of 114 (600736)
01-16-2011 8:06 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by slevesque
01-16-2011 7:52 PM


Re: How much does a selection cost?
Selection in a population cannot be done overwhelmingly in a population without driving the species to extinction. The cost of selection is what puts the upper limit on how much selection can happen in any given generation.
HUH?
Almost every species that ever existed has gone extinct.
A high mutation rate means you would need more intense selection if you want to keep 'in check' all these new incoming mutations (with the majority being harmful). What I am saying is that such high level of selection is impossible because of the cost of selection
Huh?
Again, so what? Almost every species that ever existed has gone extinct.
Google is your friend. When I say Neo-Darwinian evolution, I mean Neo-Darwinian evolution and I expect that someone with 18k posts on a forum about evolution would know what it is.
From your own cites?
quote:
Following the development, from about 1937 to 1950, of the modern evolutionary synthesis, now generally referred to as the synthetic view of evolution or the modern synthesis, the term neo-Darwinian is often used to refer to contemporary evolutionary theory.[7] However, such usage has been described by some as incorrect; with Ernst Mayr writing in 1984:
"...the term neo-Darwinism for the synthetic theory is wrong, because the term neo-Darwinism was coined by Romanes in 1895 as a designation of Weismann's theory."'
Despite this, publications such as the Encyclopaedia Britannica, use this term to refer to current evolutionary theory. This term is also used in the scientific literature, with the academic publishers Blackwell Publishing referring to "neo-Darwinism as practised today", and some figures in the study of evolution like Richard Dawkins and Stephen Jay Gould, using the term in their writings and lectures.
Neo-Darwinian evolution is a century old term and guess what, it is no longer way back then. We have learned much, particularly in the last half century or so, and the Theory of Evolution itself has evolved since then.
Edited by jar, : appalin spallin

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by slevesque, posted 01-16-2011 7:52 PM slevesque has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by slevesque, posted 01-17-2011 2:26 AM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 419 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(1)
Message 17 of 114 (600795)
01-17-2011 10:39 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by slevesque
01-17-2011 2:26 AM


Re: How much does a selection cost?
Extinction arose when the selective pressures became extremely high, ie they went way over the limitation of the cost of selection and it drove the species to extinction.
But certainly, you are not proposing that this is 'normal' in the existence of a species. A species that selective pressures are pushing towards extinction is certainly not evolving, it is at the end of the road. (Even if the selective pressures stop for whatever reason, there is still a chance that species will undergo genetic meltdown because of a lack of genetic diversity)
This is why I am talking about the period in the existence of a species, where selective pressures where normal, and it's the whole point: during that period, can it even stay in stasis ?
Yes, extinction does seem to be normal and almost universal.
slevesque writes:
jar writes:
Neo-Darwinian evolution is a century old term and guess what, it is no longer way back then. We have learned much, particularly in the last half century or so, and the Theory of Evolution itself has evolved since then.
With all due respect to dr. Mayr, even if the term had a given definition back in 1895, does not mean that definition hasn't changed with time. The wiki quote you provided certainly shows this when it says that
quote:
Despite this, publications such as the Encyclopaedia Britannica, use this term to refer to current evolutionary theory. This term is also used in the scientific literature, with the academic publishers Blackwell Publishing referring to "neo-Darwinism as practised today", and some figures in the study of evolution like Richard Dawkins and Stephen Jay Gould, using the term in their writings and lectures.
I understand that ''Neo-Darwinian evolution'' is globally understood within the scientific community to describe the modern synthesis.
Note the qualifiers even there. "As practiced today". "current evolutionary theory".
Return to the question I asked back in Message 4; "Further, what does the topic title even mean? What exactly is "NeoDarwinian evolution"? What was "Neo-Darwinian evolution" then years ago? How about a quarter century ago?"
You are answering the very question YOU asked in the topic.
Theories change as do critters; both evolve. The existing Lazurus species are NOT identical to examples from millions of years ago.
There are examples of insects that gained wings, lost wings and then regained entirely different wings then in the earlier iteration. Modern Coelacanth are not the same as ancient ones. Modern Horseshoe Crabs are not the same as ancient ones.
I think part of the issue can be seen in what I quoted above. You say "A species that selective pressures are pushing towards extinction is certainly not evolving, it is at the end of the road. " But that too is evolution. Evolution does not mean improving or even surviving. Critters can evolve into failures as well as evolve into successes.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by slevesque, posted 01-17-2011 2:26 AM slevesque has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by slevesque, posted 01-17-2011 2:50 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 419 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 24 of 114 (600869)
01-17-2011 3:10 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by slevesque
01-17-2011 2:50 PM


Re: How much does a selection cost?
You can't be saying that it is gaining any novel features, you can't say it in way of becoming another species, you can't even say it is experiencing a change in the frequency of an allele in the population. When selective pressures are at such a high level, all this breaks down and I can't see how any definition of evolution could encompass such a situation.
HUH?
The species did not pass through the filter of Natural Selection. It became extinct.
The Theory of Evolution not only helps us understand the diversity of life we see today, it helps us understand the life that is not here today.
Evolution is not about any one specific species, it is simply the result of all the processes in the past.
Remember there are two parts. There is the side where there is change and the filter that determines what continues.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

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jar
Member (Idle past 419 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 42 of 114 (601070)
01-18-2011 3:52 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by slevesque
01-18-2011 3:32 PM


Re: Eldredge & Gould -- stasis is stasis because ...
The scenario I have built does not lead to extinction since I haven't defined any deleterious-to-beneficial ratio of the mutations. All I am interested right now is: how is stasis possible ? How can it not always be continuous change, given the high mutation rates ?
What do you mean by stasis? Are you saying that there is no genetic change? Are there any such examples?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

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jar
Member (Idle past 419 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 60 of 114 (601127)
01-18-2011 8:53 PM
Reply to: Message 59 by Coyote
01-18-2011 8:50 PM


Re: Eldredge & Gould -- stasis is stasis because ...
There has not even been much change in the Genome of most anything since the time of Adam.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 59 by Coyote, posted 01-18-2011 8:50 PM Coyote has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 61 by Coyote, posted 01-18-2011 9:14 PM jar has seen this message but not replied

  
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