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Author Topic:   The evolution of hell: how rhetoric changes religion
ICANT
Member (Idle past 181 days)
Posts: 6426
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 46 of 66 (601182)
01-19-2011 2:14 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by ApostateAbe
01-15-2011 6:44 PM


Re: Damned
Hi Abe,

ApostateAbe writes:

Hell, then, is not so much a place of inflicting torture, but it is a place that the damned souls willingly choose.

You have a warped view of what the Literal Biblical Text says.

Question: If a soul is damned how can there be a choice?

First of all I can not use the word soul for the spirit of mankind.

Modern man was created in the image/likeness of God Genesis 1:27. God has a body, mind and spirit. Therefore man has a body, mind and spirit.

The body will die the mind and spirit will never die.

Hell is temporary.

All mankind are doomed to spend eternity in the lake of fire which has no relation to hell.

John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

This verse tells us mankind is condemned already. He doesn't have to do anything and has no choice in the matter.

Mankind is condemned already because of unbelief.
Mankind is condemned but he has a choice as to whether he will take God at His word and accept the free full pardon to eliminate that condemnation.

Now to Hell being temporary.

Everyone in Hell will get out one day and face the God man who was crucified on the cross at calvary to pay the sin debt of all mankind. They will bow their knee and confess to God.

Romans 14:11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.

Hell will be cast into the lake of fire where the devil and the false prophet are, along with everyone whose name is not written in the Lamb's book of life.

They will be tormented there for the balance of eternity.

Revelation20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

The sad part about this is it makes no difference if you believe it or not it will come to pass. You may not believe in God today but when you meet Him face to face you will confess that He is God.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by ApostateAbe, posted 01-15-2011 6:44 PM ApostateAbe has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 48 by ApostateAbe, posted 01-19-2011 9:40 AM ICANT has replied
 Message 49 by Coragyps, posted 01-19-2011 10:14 AM ICANT has taken no action

  
ICANT
Member (Idle past 181 days)
Posts: 6426
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 50 of 66 (601237)
01-19-2011 11:05 AM
Reply to: Message 48 by ApostateAbe
01-19-2011 9:40 AM


Re: Damned
Hi Abe,

ApostateAbe writes:

ICANT, how do you take the modern shifts in the definition of hell away from what was believed classically? Do you take such shifts to be a good thing? A bad thing?

What do modern definitions of hell have to do with anything?

There are those who say it is the grave.

There are those who say it does not exist.

There are those who say God is such a loving God He would not put anyone in hell.

There are those who say God does not exist.

I will let you in on a little secret. It does not matter what anyone believes or says about the existence of hell or God. The only thing that matters is what is recorded in the Biblical Text.

Hell is not the final destination of those who do not accept the free full pardon offered by God.

The lake of fire is the final destination of the devil and his angels and all those whose names are not written in the Book of Life.

Now if God does not exist then it is all a lie and those who do not believe in God does not have anything to worry about.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by ApostateAbe, posted 01-19-2011 9:40 AM ApostateAbe has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 51 by ApostateAbe, posted 01-19-2011 12:55 PM ICANT has replied

  
ICANT
Member (Idle past 181 days)
Posts: 6426
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 53 of 66 (601280)
01-19-2011 4:02 PM
Reply to: Message 51 by ApostateAbe
01-19-2011 12:55 PM


Re: Damned
Hi Abe,

ApostateAbe writes:

I believe that hell does not objectively exist, but it's subjective existence has a very powerful effect on our lives. Do you think the doctrine of hell helped to motivate adherence to Christianity and Islam in the past centuries to help those religions predominate and that the doctrine has less of an effect in modern times?

I do not think the doctrine of hell helped to motivate adherence to Christianity.

That is if you mean Christianity as a following of the teachings of Jesus and trying to live a life of love and forgiveness. Those things only come because of the leadership of the Holy Spirit one receives when they are born again in accepting God's offer of a free full pardon.

If you mean did the doctrine of hell cause people to see their need of accepting God's offer of a free full pardon the answer is yes.

It still causes those who believe it exists to accept that pardon.

Are there fewer accepting that offer today the answer is yes.

But it is expected and predicted.

Titus 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;

I will not comment on Islamic doctrine.

As far as what you believe it has nothing to do with whether hell exists or does not exist.

Its simple if God exist then hell exist and the lake of fire exists that death, hell and the grave will be cast into.

If God does not exist you have no problem.

Are you 100% sure God does not exist?

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by ApostateAbe, posted 01-19-2011 12:55 PM ApostateAbe has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 54 by ApostateAbe, posted 01-21-2011 10:09 PM ICANT has replied

  
ICANT
Member (Idle past 181 days)
Posts: 6426
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


(1)
Message 58 of 66 (601631)
01-22-2011 11:59 AM
Reply to: Message 54 by ApostateAbe
01-21-2011 10:09 PM


Re: Damned
Hi Abe,

ApostateAbe writes:

ICANT, thank you for your intelligent answers. I am 100% sure that God does exist, and I make sense of the existence of God as a very popular and powerful idea. It is essentially the same thing that an atheist believes, but I make an important distinction between objective existence and subjective existence. I am certain that God exists subjectively (in the mind), and I am almost as much certain that God does not exist objectively (in the external universe).

So you are 100% sure that people make up God and believe in their mind that He does exist.

You are a little less than 100% sure that God does not exist in reality.

ApostateAbe writes:

You said, "If God does not exist you have no problem." The implication is that, if God does exist objectively, then I do have a problem. No doubt about it. That is essentially the reason why I regard hell as so important to explaining the popularity of Christianity and Islam--they make people believe that they are taking a big risk if they do not adhere. Even if the odds are very small that there is a heaven and a hell, who would be stupid enough to take the risk in believing that they do not actually exist?

You are 100% sure you have a problem if God does exist in reality.

You base that on the stories of a place that is called hell.

You are correct in the belief that many have used the scare tactic of using the fear of hell to control people and get them to join their religion.

I was even guilty of that some 45 years ago as that is what was being taught and is still taught by many.

But I learned very quickly that a man convinced of something against his will is unconvinced still.

So if I could scare you into saying a prayer asking for salvation when you were not really convinced that God exists I would be doing more harm than good.

This has been done for the past 100 years or more and the actions and lives of those people is the reason for the attitude today towards christianity.

What do you base the odds of heaven and hell being small on?

Either God exists or God does not exist.

If God exists then heaven and hell exist.

If God does not exist then heaven and hell do not exist.

I make that out to be a 50% chance heaven and hell exist.

I am sure the choir will tell me how wrong I am.

Just as they brought up Pascal's Wager.

I was convinced by God that He does exist and because of that I accepted His offer of a free full pardon. Because of that I have live 62 years since then without a worry about anything. God has provided everything I have ever needed.

There is no way I can convince you or anyone else that God does exist. Neither is there any way I can scare you into believing in God. If you do not believe in God you can not be scared by a story about hell.

If God can not convince you He exists there is no way I can.

ApostateAbe writes:

You would risk a very a big punishment and losing a very big reward. Am I right

Let me take a stab at correcting your version of Pascal's Wager.

First of all if God exist you are doomed to spend eternity in the lake of fire. That is a fact.

Second if God exist He offers you a free full pardon.

Since you do not believe God exists in reality there is no choice for you to make. Thus no wager to make.

Now if you did believe God exists as some here do and then refuse to accept His offer of a free full pardon then you would be making a wager.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by ApostateAbe, posted 01-21-2011 10:09 PM ApostateAbe has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 59 by ApostateAbe, posted 01-22-2011 12:35 PM ICANT has replied

  
ICANT
Member (Idle past 181 days)
Posts: 6426
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 61 of 66 (601643)
01-22-2011 3:47 PM
Reply to: Message 59 by ApostateAbe
01-22-2011 12:35 PM


Re: Damned
Hi Abe,

I used to think it was my job to convince people they needed to be saved.

Eventually after much study I realized it was not my job to get people saved as that is the Holy Spirits job.

It is my job to tell them what the Word says and then it is up to them to make their own decision.

When I sit down and talk with someone about their relationship with God and I present God's plan I do not repeat it until they ask for help.

A lost person is just like a drug addict or alcoholic no one can help either until they come to the conclusion they have a problem, and decide they want help.

God Bless,


This message is a reply to:
 Message 59 by ApostateAbe, posted 01-22-2011 12:35 PM ApostateAbe has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 62 by ApostateAbe, posted 01-22-2011 3:58 PM ICANT has taken no action

  
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