Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
6 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,809 Year: 3,066/9,624 Month: 911/1,588 Week: 94/223 Day: 5/17 Hour: 1/1


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Did the Biblical Exodus ever happen?
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 196 of 657 (599428)
01-07-2011 12:23 PM
Reply to: Message 195 by Percy
01-07-2011 10:24 AM


Re: More About Mount Sinai
Actually that's pretty good evidence that the darker area is down to geology - the upper strata are simply of dark-coloured rock.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 195 by Percy, posted 01-07-2011 10:24 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 197 by Percy, posted 01-07-2011 12:41 PM PaulK has replied

Percy
Member
Posts: 22390
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 197 of 657 (599432)
01-07-2011 12:41 PM
Reply to: Message 196 by PaulK
01-07-2011 12:23 PM


Re: More About Mount Sinai
PaulK writes:
Actually that's pretty good evidence that the darker area is down to geology - the upper strata are simply of dark-coloured rock.
If you scroll around and zoom in and out I think you'll become convinced that texture, shade and reduced angle of incidence with light from the sun are largely responsible for the darker regions. There do seem to be two colors of rock, light brown and a darker grayish brown:
In any case, all mountains in the entire region have these light and dark shades. No mountain individually stands out as darkened, and certainly not in a way that resembles being burned.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 196 by PaulK, posted 01-07-2011 12:23 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 198 by jar, posted 01-07-2011 12:51 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied
 Message 199 by PaulK, posted 01-07-2011 1:22 PM Percy has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 198 of 657 (599435)
01-07-2011 12:51 PM
Reply to: Message 197 by Percy
01-07-2011 12:41 PM


Re: More About Mount Sinai
Plus, there are many very natural explanations for blackened mountain tops. One of the places I really enjoy visiting is Black Mountain. North Carolina.
The mountain top does appear black, even though the rocks themselves are a light gray. The reason is a moss or lichen that grows on the rock.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 197 by Percy, posted 01-07-2011 12:41 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied

PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 199 of 657 (599439)
01-07-2011 1:22 PM
Reply to: Message 197 by Percy
01-07-2011 12:41 PM


Re: More About Mount Sinai
quote:
If you scroll around and zoom in and out I think you'll become convinced that texture, shade and reduced angle of incidence with light from the sun are largely responsible for the darker regions. There do seem to be two colors of rock, light brown and a darker grayish brown
In fact I did scroll around a bit and did consider the possibility that lighting and angles could account for the difference. I concluded that it probably did not account for all of it, and there did seem to be darker and lighter rock, as you say, with the darker tending to be on top. Thus "pretty good evidence".

This message is a reply to:
 Message 197 by Percy, posted 01-07-2011 12:41 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 200 by Percy, posted 01-07-2011 2:17 PM PaulK has not replied

Percy
Member
Posts: 22390
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 200 of 657 (599455)
01-07-2011 2:17 PM
Reply to: Message 199 by PaulK
01-07-2011 1:22 PM


Re: More About Mount Sinai
Another factor is that the rocks of lighter color seem to be the more horizontal surfaces while the rocks of the darker color appear to be the more vertical surfaces. That the darker surfaces appear to have a rougher texture, consistent with stratified layers, also makes it likely that they're more vertical.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 199 by PaulK, posted 01-07-2011 1:22 PM PaulK has not replied

PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 201 of 657 (601724)
01-23-2011 3:42 PM
Reply to: Message 159 by Buzsaw
01-06-2011 8:46 AM


Re: Reviewing The Evidence
quote:
Give me some time and we'll revisit some of that evidence with particular pertinent points, corroborating the wheel & axel forms to be indeed chariot wheels of the Biblical Exodus.
I note that you have had more than two weeks, and there is still no sign of this new evidence you claim to have.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 159 by Buzsaw, posted 01-06-2011 8:46 AM Buzsaw has not replied

Trae
Member (Idle past 4306 days)
Posts: 442
From: Fremont, CA, USA
Joined: 06-18-2004


Message 202 of 657 (601767)
01-23-2011 11:20 PM
Reply to: Message 113 by Theodoric
01-04-2011 1:21 PM


Re: Artifact Evidence, Etc
Each day would be millions of more holes.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 113 by Theodoric, posted 01-04-2011 1:21 PM Theodoric has not replied

Trae
Member (Idle past 4306 days)
Posts: 442
From: Fremont, CA, USA
Joined: 06-18-2004


Message 203 of 657 (601780)
01-24-2011 4:13 AM
Reply to: Message 94 by Buzsaw
09-16-2010 8:56 AM


Re: More Strawmen and Evidence Denial
Buzsaw writes:
You have yet to show any evidence of an ancient highway up the Western shoreline of the Gulf of Aqaba. We're still waiting for that.
LOL. The strawman Roman Empire didn't exist to build any highways for Moses's time.
Via Traiana Nova - Wikipedia
The problem Buz is that you haven't shown any evidence for the pillar's history, you only hope it is a pillar dating to Moses' time (whenever that might be).
With the above link we know that there was a road which normally would have some single pillars (the road makers were pillars) leading to places which presumably had other pillars.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 94 by Buzsaw, posted 09-16-2010 8:56 AM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 204 by Buzsaw, posted 01-24-2011 2:46 PM Trae has replied

Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 204 of 657 (601830)
01-24-2011 2:46 PM
Reply to: Message 203 by Trae
01-24-2011 4:13 AM


Re: More Strawmen and Evidence Denial
Trae writes:
Buzsaw writes:
You have yet to show any evidence of an ancient highway up the Western shoreline of the Gulf of Aqaba. We're still waiting for that.
LOL. The strawman Roman Empire didn't exist to build any highways for Moses's time.
Via Traiana Nova - Wikipedia
The problem Buz is that you haven't shown any evidence for the pillar's history, you only hope it is a pillar dating to Moses' time (whenever that might be).
With the above link we know that there was a road which normally would have some single pillars (the road makers were pillars) leading to places which presumably had other pillars.
Your road is made of straw, man. Your link map is nowhere near the Nuweiba region. Let's see a road route leading down the Western coast to Nuweiba Beach. Then we'll talk.
The images in this link give you a better idea of the terrain, things about the columns etc. Could they h ave been entrapped on this beach. Of course they could have.
Btw, the columns were not one of my high evidences. They were thrown in for good measure

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The Immeasurable Present Eternally Extends the Infinite Past And Infinitely Consumes The Eternal Future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 203 by Trae, posted 01-24-2011 4:13 AM Trae has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 205 by jar, posted 01-24-2011 2:53 PM Buzsaw has seen this message but not replied
 Message 206 by ringo, posted 01-24-2011 3:45 PM Buzsaw has replied
 Message 210 by Trae, posted 01-25-2011 2:19 AM Buzsaw has not replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 205 of 657 (601831)
01-24-2011 2:53 PM
Reply to: Message 204 by Buzsaw
01-24-2011 2:46 PM


Re: More Strawmen and Evidence Denial
Buz writes:
Your road is made of straw, man. Your link map is nowhere near the Nuweiba region. Let's see a road route leading down the Western coast to Nuweiba Beach.
And as explained there are two issues here. First, from Aqaba south the main road WAS the water. The Gulf of Aqaba was a major transportation link.
Second, there is still no evidence presented that Nuweiba Beach is in any way related to the Exodus myth.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 204 by Buzsaw, posted 01-24-2011 2:46 PM Buzsaw has seen this message but not replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 206 of 657 (601835)
01-24-2011 3:45 PM
Reply to: Message 204 by Buzsaw
01-24-2011 2:46 PM


Re: More Strawmen and Evidence Denial
Buzsaw writes:
Your link map is nowhere near the Nuweiba region.
Nuweiba is a non-starter. It's on the wrong side of Sinai. It's much, much too far away. There's no conceivable reason for the children of Israel to have gone that way.

"I'm Rory Bellows, I tell you! And I got a lot of corroborating evidence... over here... by the throttle!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 204 by Buzsaw, posted 01-24-2011 2:46 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 207 by Buzsaw, posted 01-24-2011 11:49 PM ringo has replied

Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 207 of 657 (601914)
01-24-2011 11:49 PM
Reply to: Message 206 by ringo
01-24-2011 3:45 PM


Re: Which Sinai
ringo writes:
Nuweiba is a non-starter. It's on the wrong side of Sinai. It's much, much too far away. There's no conceivable reason for the children of Israel to have gone that way.
The Biblical record says Sinai is in Arabia. The corroborating evidence does not take you to the traditional Mt Sinai. You need to show some corroborating evidence for justification of the traditional Mt Sinai sizing up to the Biblical record. The depth of the sea near the traditional Sinai is no where near as shallow as Nuweiba. It's very deep, as is most of the Red Sea.
There is a conceivable reason for them to go there. Jehovah wanted to destroy Pharaoh's army so as to rid Israel of his threat from then on all of the way to the eventual Promised Land.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The Immeasurable Present Eternally Extends the Infinite Past And Infinitely Consumes The Eternal Future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 206 by ringo, posted 01-24-2011 3:45 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 208 by ringo, posted 01-25-2011 1:38 AM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 209 by PaulK, posted 01-25-2011 2:05 AM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 212 by Theodoric, posted 01-28-2011 2:11 PM Buzsaw has replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 208 of 657 (601928)
01-25-2011 1:38 AM
Reply to: Message 207 by Buzsaw
01-24-2011 11:49 PM


Re: Which Sinai
Buzsaw writes:
You need to show some corroborating evidence for justification of the traditional Mt Sinai sizing up to the Biblical record.
The Biblical record indicates a short period of time between the Children of Israel leaving Goshen and Pharaoh's army beginning its pursuit:
quote:
Exo 14:5-7 And it was told the king of Egypt that the people fled: and the heart of Pharaoh and of his servants was turned against the people, and they said, Why have we done this, that we have let Israel go from serving us? And he made ready his chariot, and took his people with him: And he took six hundred chosen chariots, and all the chariots of Egypt, and captains over every one of them.
It would have taken weeks to march the children of Israel to Nuweiba; it's just ludicrous to pretend that the Bible suggests any such time frame. The crossing would have had to be somewhere near Suez to fit the Biblical account.
Buzsaw writes:
Jehovah wanted to destroy Pharaoh's army so as to rid Israel of his threat from then on all of the way to the eventual Promised Land.
God could destroy Pharaoh's army anywhere. Dragging them to hell and gone across Sinai makes no sense at all.

"I'm Rory Bellows, I tell you! And I got a lot of corroborating evidence... over here... by the throttle!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 207 by Buzsaw, posted 01-24-2011 11:49 PM Buzsaw has not replied

PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 209 of 657 (601931)
01-25-2011 2:05 AM
Reply to: Message 207 by Buzsaw
01-24-2011 11:49 PM


Re: Which Sinai
quote:
The Biblical record says Sinai is in Arabia.
Buz, who are you hoping to fool ? Everyone following the discussion knows that the traditional location is "in Arabia". I know it, you know it, Ringo knows it. So why waste time trying to deceive the ignorant instead of engaging in honest discussion ?
quote:
The corroborating evidence does not take you to the traditional Mt Sinai. You need to show some corroborating evidence for justification of the traditional Mt Sinai sizing up to the Biblical record. The depth of the sea near the traditional Sinai is no where near as shallow as Nuweiba. It's very deep, as is most of the Red Sea.
Really ? According to Wikipedia:
Approximately 40% of the Red Sea is quite shallow (under 100 m/330 ft), and about 25% is under 50 m (164 ft) deep.
About 15% of the Red Sea is over 1,000 m (3,300 ft) depth that forms the deep axial trough.
For the Gulf of Suez (separating Egypt from Sinai) we have:
Average depth 40 ft (12 m)
Max. depth 60 ft (18 m)
From Lysimachus' chart we know that the route has to go across an area at least 850m deep (even avoiding the two "deeps" in the area).
So in reality, much of the Red Sea is shallow, the Gulf of Suez is especially shallow and Nuweiba is near the one of the deeper portions. Which is pretty much the opposite of what you said.
And we're still waiting for you to provide that wonderful new evidence that the coral formations really do contain chariot wheels ! Come on Buz, it's got to be better than deceptions and falsehoods !

This message is a reply to:
 Message 207 by Buzsaw, posted 01-24-2011 11:49 PM Buzsaw has not replied

Trae
Member (Idle past 4306 days)
Posts: 442
From: Fremont, CA, USA
Joined: 06-18-2004


Message 210 of 657 (601934)
01-25-2011 2:19 AM
Reply to: Message 204 by Buzsaw
01-24-2011 2:46 PM


Re: More Strawmen and Evidence Denial
Buz,
If Solomon erected the pillars then they're not evidence of the Exodus, only more evidence that the Jews believed there was an Exodus.
Your link seems to say one of the markers was at Aqaba, is that not where the road in the map goes?
According to your link there are two columns, you haven't provided what archeologist say about the columns, you haven't provided even a photograph of supposed inscriptions, you haven't provided even a single link showing that Jews made such columns.
I posted the road to show you that the Romans could and did create roads though mountainous terrain in that area.
While I understand you believe you’re throwing the columns in for good measure, that’s highly problematic. What you seem to be saying is that supporting evidence doesn’t really have to be correct. It is almost as if you’re trying to create a new category of evidence which might be called, ‘wishful evidence’. You appear to be falling victim to a sort of Gish-gallop way of thinking. Where one feels that if they have enough pieces of bad evidence this somehow constitutes actual proof.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 204 by Buzsaw, posted 01-24-2011 2:46 PM Buzsaw has not replied

Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024