Does the Christian God Play with Free Will?

you guys throw around free will and election, I just need this to be clarified, do you mean this having to do with Salvation? becasue I think that is what the main debate now a days is about (maybe im wrong, but if thats what you are wondering about, you are off track a bit, you seem to be asking if there is free will in general) I believe that if God calls you to be saved, that you cannot resist GOd. I also believe that we make our own decisions in some areas, but they still come with consequences. It's funny that you mention that Ephesians verse, just read the next verse down and it might clear somthing up. I think you can disobey God's commands, Achan did in the OT, and he was stoned. Peter denied Christ. If God wants somthing to happen, it will happen whether the first person he chooses accepts the task or not. If God dictated our every move, then i feel that there would be no point in living,becuase we would just be GOd's puppets. also in exodus, I thought he just hardened Pharaoh's hearts, that doenst necesarily mean he doenst believe, I think that after the miracles, that he believed God was on their side.(and thats why he let them go, same thing happened to the Philistines when they had the ark)Check out Romans 9:16-24 (this would point out that God chooses us, in the sense of election towards salvatoin) Also GOd calls many prophets to be his throughout the OT(Jeremiah, and samuel for 2 examples), and they did no resist (I am not a super-Electionist, nor am I a free willist, I think I have clearly stated where I stand)[This message has been edited by Pringlesguy7, 10-09-2003]

Pringlesguy7 writes:

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do you mean this having to do with Salvation?

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Not directly, no.What we mean is something very basic:If I ask you to pick a card, any card, do you have a free choice to do so?Does god make people do things?The Bible seems to clearly state yes, god does. God makes Pharoah be a stubborn ass. There didn't necessarily have to be ten plagues, but god hardened Pharaoh's heart so that he wouldn't accede to Moses' demands.------------------
Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

Ah, I see i see. But you could get into the debate that God inspires people to do things. ( yes i know, it could be quite similar as saying he makes them do things) I believe that God can make you do things. But you have to realize we are living in a different time now, than thousands of years ago in the OT days.[This message has been edited by Pringlesguy7, 10-09-2003]

Pringlesguy7 responds to me:

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But you could get into the debate that God inspires people to do things.

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But that isn't what the text says. The Bible does not say that god comes to Pharaoh and convinces him through some sort of debate to refuse Moses. Instead, it says that god tells Moses directly that he will "harden Pharaoh's heart."

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I believe that God can make you do things.

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Then god does play with free will.And if so, why doesn't god force people to believe? If god truly loves us and he sees that some of us are going down the path of wrack and ruin, then why doesn't he intervene to save them?

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But you have to realize we are living in a different time now, than thousands of years ago in the OT days.

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Why?------------------
Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

In the OT days, God dwelt in a "place" Now it is very specific that the presence of God is not in a single place. NT and present day christians have the holy spirit living in them.When I say GOd can inspire you to do things, I am talking about when Scripture was first written. I believe now a days very rariily will GOd write it out on a wall for you. God's voice is not some thundering flash of lighting. It is still, small and quiet. Many times it says "to be still and wait quietly before the Lord" and to "be still and know that I am God"Alot of things changed when Jesus came to earth, the old covenant was replaced with the new covenant. (such as sin, and forgiveness, Jesus is how you can be forgiven of sins, instead of sacrificing a bull)(i'm not saying that abrahams covenant was discontinued)yes, he does harden Pharoahs heart. BUt that is not forcing him to believe. He did intervene, he sent his son Jesus as our sin offering, and he has given all of us the chance, we CHOOSE whether to accept it or not, like right now, it seems as you are choosing to reject it.And if you look at it this way, we all deserve to die and go to tell. no where does it say that we are worthy, or righteouss on our own. So GOd sent his son for the sake of the elect, those that would believe. THere is room for everyone in Heaven, but not everyone will accept it, lets face it, sin is mankinds downfall.Our worship is different now, we do not offer sacrifices, we do not have one day of atonement. We do not have one certian group that can be priests.(Levites) Our religious situation is way different, Polytheism is not such a problem as is people not caring abou religion at all. The office of Prophets is not what it was like. IT says in the NT that people want to see miracles to believe, but that even then they will not believe. Miracles are not common like they were in the days of Elijah and Moses.Hope that helps------------------
"We may ignore, but we can nowhere evade, the presence of God."

Pringlesguy7 responds to me:

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In the OT days, God dwelt in a "place"

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Irrelevant. Where god is has nothing to do with whether or not god plays with free will.

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God's voice is not some thundering flash of lighting.

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Why not? The Bible is quite colorful in describing the Spielbergian special effects that happen when god decides to manifest. Whether or not those things happen any more in this day and age is irrelevant, though. The question is, does god play with free will? And if so, why doesn't he save people who are on the wrong path?

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yes, he does harden Pharoahs heart. BUt that is not forcing him to believe.

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Indeed...it's the opposite: It's forcing him to disbelieve.If god is loving, why would he deliberately make somebody a stubborn jackass and then throw increasingly cruel punishments upon innocent people as a response to what he caused to happen?

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He did intervene, he sent his son Jesus as our sin offering, and he has given all of us the chance, we CHOOSE whether to accept it or not, like right now, it seems as you are choosing to reject it.

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Incorrect. You have no idea what I believe. Don't think that just because I disagree with you that it means I don't believe in god.

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And if you look at it this way, we all deserve to die and go to tell.

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Why? What did a just-born baby do to deserve everlasting torment in hell?And if god plays with free will, why doesn't he save us from going down the primrose path?

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no where does it say that we are worthy, or righteouss on our own.

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Incorrect. In many passages, the Bible clearly states that salvation is done through works. You want to get to heaven? Then all you have to do is live a good life. Here's but one example:Psalms 62:12: Also unto thee, O Lord, belongeth mercy: for thou renderest to every man according to his work.And let us not forget Moses and his family. Why were they saved? Because they were the only righteous people:Genesis 6:9: These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God.And then there are these paragons of virtue:Job 1:1: There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil.1 Kings 15:14: But the high places were not removed: nevertheless Asa's heart was perfect with the LORD all his days.Luke 1:5: THERE was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth.
1:6: And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.Luke 2:25: And, behold, there was a man in Jerusalem, whose name was Simeon; and the same man was just and devout, waiting for the consolation of Israel: and the Holy Ghost was upon him.So it seems that Noah and Job and Asa and Zacharias and Elisabeth and Simeon were all righteous.

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THere is room for everyone in Heaven, but not everyone will accept it, lets face it, sin is mankinds downfall.

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Says who? You? Why should we believe you? You're not god. I think it would be best to let god decide. Doesn't your holy book say something about judging?

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IT says in the NT that people want to see miracles to believe, but that even then they will not believe.

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So if god plays with free will, why not make them believe?Surely god, who knows the hearts and minds of all, could have a one-on-one conversation that would adequately resolve all doubt in that individual.And that's not even playing with their free will.Remember that old puzzle about the nine dots that you have to connect with four straight lines, not lifting your pencil from the paper?It can be done in three."Poppycock," you might say, but I don't have to crawl into your head and play with your mind in order to get you to know that it can be done. All I have to do is show you.So even if god doesn't play with free will, why won't he take the time and effort to convince those who need a little more tutoring?

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Miracles are not common like they were in the days of Elijah and Moses.

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Why not?What's god got to lose?------------------
Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

I am always amazed at the way Christians happily repeat this. Do you honestly believe you've done something so bad in your life that you deserve at eternity of torment for it? I sure as hell haven't. Ok, now maybe you could argue for a day or two, but personally I think that wouldn't go down to well with the ol' court of human rights.

Looking at the topic in a more general matter:
The bible claims that humans have free will. It is also the opinion of many that as God is good, the root of evil lies in the free will of humans. How is this compatible with an omniscient God? For devine foreknowledge suggests that there is only one possible path in life to take, and the standard definition of free will contradicts this.

I'll play devil's advocate for a moment since I was a fundee christian at one time. By doing so I hope to let you in on the standard answer that christians give to your question:"Do you honestly believe that you've done something so bad...?" St. Augustine of Hippo, a church bishop in the 4th century AD is generally credited with the idea of 'original-sin'. This idea says that when Adam&Eve sinned, they brought sin and the penalty of sin not only upon themselves, but on the whole world. IOW it's sort-of a bad genetic mutation that every human inherits at birth. Therefor everyone who lives after Adam is sinful and must die. And depending on the denomination, babies right out of the womb are sinners also and must die. It's no longer about works anymore or how good or bad a person is. It's about an 'inherited disease' so to speak. Much of the christian church (most denominations) picked up Augustine's "ball" and ran with it. Just listen to Jerry Falwell rant on about original-sin sometime and you'll see how diabolical it all is. On second thought, don't torture yourself! What does all this have to do with free-will and God making us believe in him or not. Simple: God according to the theology I was taught, anyway, doesn't force his will on us to believe in him. The Holy-Spirit(God) bothers people with their problems(thru christian witnesses) and they eventually choose to believe because they become convinced that they are sinful. So according to this theology we do have free-will. You may still question wether God's bugging us constitutes coersion. Probably.[This message has been edited by Prozacman, 12-03-2003][This message has been edited by Prozacman, 12-03-2003]

Prozacman,So god doesn't force us to believe him, but he does force us to be sinners. That's just a variaton on the other bizarre concept that works don't get you into heaven (ya gotta believe!), but they will get you into hell.------------------
Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

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How is this compatible with an omniscient God? For devine foreknowledge suggests that there is only one possible path in life to take, and the standard definition of free will contradicts this.

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Why stop at omniscience? God is also described as omnipotent, and the creator of everything.If he was all powerful and created everything, that suggests everything is under his direct control. If he is omniscient on top of that then he MUST have predetermined everyone's choices and so no one has free will.But let's leave omniscience aside for a sec. If humans are said to have free will which is untouchable by God, then God cannot be said to be omnipotent.According to many fundies regarding abortion, humans are actively (or have the potential to) thwart God's plans.How important is a God if he is so easily thwarted by men? Or is he actually omnipotent and so men really have no free will and thus evil is God's doing? This seems to be the choice we are left with... and impotent God or an evil one.It may be said that he is all powerful but chooses not to interfere... thus empowering humans to do evil... and only steps in to judge later, or crushes people outright if they become too much of a problem.But this raises its own problem which is what I think Rrhain is getting at. Why is it better for God to allow enough free will that he will have to murder and then torture people for eternity (ie exerting his power in hate), rather than lovingly using his power beforehand and guiding people away from evil when their free will is going to cause him pain?------------------
holmes[This message has been edited by holmes, 12-04-2003]

RRhain, i have read many of ur posts and i always agree with what u have to say. what i have to say about this is - the bible is crap, i dont know how people can belive in something like that. you have pointed out some of the infinitybillion contradictions ( yes i read your arguments about infintiy and "bloogity hahah" < that doesnt mean anything just that u did a great job)

i forgot to add this, if god is all powerful can he create a rock to heavy for himself to lift? ( hahahah i love that question, i posted a topic about it!)

A god that would send people to hell forever with no chance of redemption is frankly evil. No way around it. No matter how horrible you were in life no one NO ONE deserves to spend eternity in hell. So either there is no hell or god is a vindictive maniac. (Or there is no god but for the sake of argument I am assuming there is)But as far as free will goes god is a hypocrite. He says he won't mess with free will yet he creates a hell for all those that don't do as he says. So you have free will to do whatever you want but if you don't do exactly what god wants then you go to hell forever...umm right.Not to mention the places in the bible where he does mess with the free will of the pharaoh, among others.

Sorry this reply is late. Well, yea this god did force us to be sinners when Adam and Eve were tricked by the serpent, unless god had no ability to fortell what was going to happen. Then he might be innocent of making us sinners. But christianity says he did have forknowledge, and so we are left with a god knowing full-well what would happen, allowing the serpent(who was Satan in christian theology) to trick our "first ancestors"; to test A&E's faith in god because as we read in Genesis; man was made in the "image" of god. Christians and Jews take that to mean that people are like god in that they have free-will. So if this god wanted to make beings like himself who he could relate to, then they would have to have free-will like he does. Therefor god has to risk the possibility that beings like himself may choose to go their own way and not wish relate to Him. That's what I was taught anyway, and that's what the story of the "Fall" seems to teach. In the end I think that this god is so insecure that he couldn't let well enough alone. So we get the mythical tales of the OT where god is pushing himself at us like a neglected spoiled-brat who just can't seem to get his way. Yes, St. Paul taught that the "works of the law" will not get you into heaven, but faith in Jesus will. IOW works condem a person but faith saves. That's the christianity I was taught. If christians on this forum think something different, please speak up! Anyway faith in Jesus is just another condition just like works for getting close to God. In my opinion, God needs to grow up and stop trying to corner the beings he made in his image with conditions for relating to him.[This message has been edited by Prozacman, 12-08-2003]