Did the Biblical Exodus ever happen?

Since it appears you still haven't seen it yet, I'm posting another message here to let you know I sent you a PM this morning.

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--	Percy
	EvC Forum Director

How does this position of yours constitute evidence? Is the idea that your ability to come up with a feasible explanation for discrepancies in depth makes it more likely the Exodus happened?Allegations aren't evidence, and your shifting the story every few posts isn't the most persuasive approach. I'd suggest debugging your theories before you post them is better.

What debris? How would this massive tsunami erode all this rock and yet still leave behind this alleged debris? How much rock was eroded? How big would this tsunami be to erode that much rock? show your work.or in short: what everyone else has already said and to sum up; You're full of shit.

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It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds
soon I discovered that this rock thing was true
Jerry Lee Lewis was the devil
Jesus was an architect previous to his career as a prophet
All of a sudden i found myself in love with the world
And so there was only one thing I could do
Was ding a ding dang my dang along ling long - Jesus Built my Hotrod Ministry
Live every week like it's Shark Week! - Tracey Jordan
Just a monkey in a long line of kings. - Matthew Good
If "elitist" just means "not the dumbest motherfucker in the room", I'll be an elitist! - Get Your War On
*not an actual doctor

I've been admonished about evidence. What I have is all you get unless I think of something considered more imperical. If none of the corroborated things I've cited satisfy you as supportive evidence, so be it.

Hi Buzsaw, Not really. At the moment you are defending a story about a tsunami that might have happened and that might have swept away a landbridge that might have existed. But at the same time, this tsunami miraculously left in place "evidence" of a crossing that might have taken place. Or not. Nothing of what you have shown so far is observable.What you need to do is show the physical evidence that there once was a landbridge at Nuweiba, that this bridge was destroyed at the right time, and that the corals you say are wagon wheels, are actually wagon wheels. One way to do this would be to look at what real tsunamis do (for example the 2004 tsunami in Asia) and point to similar evidence in the Red Sea area. Please do not pretend to know why people do not believe in god. Usually that is not because they don't want to be accountable for their actions (because they are - to the rest of humanity), but it is usually because they either see no evidence for god, or don't think that (the biblical) god is worthy of worship (because he is not really a nice guy). Furthermore, there are people who believe in god but still dismiss the exodus as real history. How are you going to explain that?But you haven't answered my question. Could you accept the possibility that the flood did not occur, if that was what the evidence would show you?EDIT: sorry, your "That's It for Now" post crossed mine.Edited by Dirk, : edit

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I've been admonished about evidence. What I have is all you get unless I think of something considered more imperical. If none of the corroborated things I've cited satisfy you as supportive evidence, so be it.

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No rational person would be satisfied with your "evidence" for reasons given in this thread. (Let us note that honest discussion requires you to address the rebuttals given rather than ignoring them or accusing your opponents of unreasonable bias).Let us also note that you promised to give evidence that you have NOT delivered Message 159. And that some of your "evidence" (such as the relative depths) wasn't even true.One final suggestion do try a little more critical evaluation of the evidence. Ask yourself if YOU would accept it as real significant evidence AGAINST your position. If you are honest with yourself you'll find that the answer is often an obvious NO.Edited by PaulK, : No reason given.

Yes, I think that's true.It's also true that folks who do acknowledge accountability to God almost universally believe that Ron Wyatt was a fraud and that none of his evidence related to the Exodus, Noah's Ark, the Ark of the Covenant etc., is real despite their beliefs that all of those things are real. I think empirical evidence of any significant Biblical event would be kinda neat, but neither my faith in God nor my salvation requires such evidence.I really wish you'd stop labeling all people who disagree with you on this issue as heathens and non Christian. Perhaps a little time with Hebrews 11 might provide a reminder of how Christians operate.Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Well, let's look at what you have provided.There was a claim that there was an "altar of the Golden Calf". Pictures were presented that showed all the images on the rock and not only was there not a single image of a calf on the rock, the image that your source claimed showed an Egyptian influence of Calf Worship was shown to have been faked and doctored.There was a claim of a rock miraculously split and with a waterway. Pictures were presented to show that the rock is actually a very commonly found formation and that there was no sign of a waterway or water eroded rocks.There was a claim that the Bible story described the people being trapped in a Wadi. The actual passages from the Bible were quoted and there was no such reference. In fact the Bible passage would place the event far away from the Neubia site.You claimed that there was an underwater crossing at the Neubia site. Actual depths were presented that showed that the depth was actually far greater and far to steep to make a crossing even on foot, much less with chariots.You then claimed that dividing the waters would create a wall of water built up by the inflow from the Jordan. When it was pointed out to you that the Jordan does not flow into the Gulf of Aqaba and that the mouth of the Gulf of Aqaba is open to the sea, you changed to some sloshing back and forth scenario.You claimed that Muslims would not investigate the Exodus because it supports a Jewish triumph over Egypt; you were shown that the Exodus is mentioned in the Qur'an and that Moses is a Muslim prophet and honored.You claimed that there is some blackened mountain top, but again, many examples were shown that show that is a common natural occurrence there and all over the world.You claim that there is some debris field but have presented zero evidence of that claim or any way that the claim could be definitely dated to some Exodus event.You claimed that the reason people are skeptical of the evidence is because they do not want to be accountable to a higher power. Again, you were shown that there are people who believe they are accountable to that higher power that do not believe the Exodus story is anything more than a myth.Finally, "corroborated" means supported by evidence. Where is the evidence?Is that a reasonable summary of your contributions to this thread?

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Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

Greeting from the n00b(ewest guy) of this forum After reading the whole thread I just feel that I have to say something too. First I want to thank jar and everyone else, as I learned a lot of interesting things from this thread (yes, I'm a history nerd), as this region and time are not that familiar to me. But, one thing did suprise me. Despite the argument over some pieces of coral, the mistranslaton of YHWH's name, no-one mentioned the mistranslation of the Red Sea. And a mistranslation it is. Infact, I found this after a short searh: The Yam Suph: "Red Sea" or "Sea of Reeds"?I also find it very odd that such a numerous people would no trace of their existance, at all. The number of people alone baffels me (~2 million?!), and then you have to think of the number of animals they would need, for transportation and food (not just meat, but eggs, milk, etc.). Now, if these people did live in one place for 40 years, most likely we would find atleast a massive ammount of animal bones etc, even if the human reamains had been removed to someplace (as far as I know, such a thing was never implied in the bible).Now, I have a faint memory from my elementary school theology classes (yes, in Finland religion is considered as an independent subject) that the Israelites did not go to the "Promised land" until those 40 years later because of the Golden Caff incident. THis was because god demanded that the people belonging to that generation should first die off (Moses included) before they could arrive into the "Promised land". That's how I remeber it being taught to us anyway...Also, I apologize for any grammar and spelling errors (they were unintentional, honest!). I think my english has gotten a little better after spending so much time on forums where the main language is english, but I still have a long way to go before I can say that my english is "fluent"....Anyway, I think I will lurk around for a little while (a bad habit...) and see what else this forum has to offer. So, see you around (maybe )

Welcome Home, glad you dropped by. Pull up a stump and set a spell.The Red Sea/Reed Sea issue has been discussed at length with Buz. It is not really a big issue though since neither the Gulf of Suez or the Gulf of Aqaba were called the Red Sea anyway.The big issue though is the actual topography of the area between the Gulf of Suez and the Mediterranean. If you go look at Google Earth for that area you will find a series of depressions, some full time lakes, others flooded during rains. Any of those could well be the Sea of Reeds, or any other body of water where reeds (think Papyrus) could be gathered.Where you don't find reeds though are in deep water or areas that rapidly deepen.

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Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

I got a question for you Buzz you believe that the flood happened, and that the exodus accured.To my understanding the flood suposedly happened 4500 years ago, and the exodus happened abbout 1000 years later right.So in 1000 years the egiptians forgot their old god and made idols to worship, they invented a new tottaly different language, conqured the isrealites. And everyone bred like rabbits so enough people could be made for the glorrius exedus event.not to mentiion at the same time 1000 years enough people where made to populate all the continents build huge cities invent their own languageges their own gods and forget their old god all of this in 1000 years with the exodus to boot. Edited by frako, : No reason given.

And if the rate of population increase after the flood was .5%/year then if the Exodus was 1000 years later then the population of the world at the time was 1176. In order to achieve a world population of, say, 40 million by the Exodus the growth rate would have had to have been about 1.55%/year, rather spectacular for any period before modern agriculture and modern medicine.--Percy

If the flood happened, the rest of the account in Genesis would have been true, including the alleged long life of humans being hundreds of years. Even by the time of the Exodus, Moses was 120 and died healthy, able to walk to the heights of the mountain.Each man lived long, had multiple wives and fathered many children. The wives were likely pregnant when they debarked from the ark. The population would have likely began to increase rapidly relatively soon after the flood.

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BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The Immeasurable Present Eternally Extends the Infinite Past And Infinitely Consumes The Eternal Future.

Contrarily, if the flood never happened the rest of the account in Genesis could have been false.I have presented you with several lines of evidence showing that the flood never happened, as have other members of this board.QED.

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Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

All those images showed was four legged hoofed animals which could have been cows or calves. They were crudely carved. Talk about bad evidence. None of your examples were anything near my corroborating evidence. You soon forget that important word, corroborative. It happened to be one of the ducks in the right order in my line of corroboratedevidence. Jar, you know full well that I cited evidence in the scripture to the contrary of your argument. Though the context used different wording, it did depict an entrapment. None of the other sites which creationists have cited meet that requirement.Some of the names of the locations in scripture are debatable and not cut in stone. And who, pray tell, effectively refuted my final position? The crossing site was a sand bar and would have eroded. I also pointed out that a relatively great area would have been dried up for the crossing. Plus, it is not known how far back the wall would have been and whether both North and South were released simultaneously or timed so as to do the most damage to the army. And, of course, what you're not reminding the folks is that I pointed out that the Jews were not designated in that particular context. To my knowledge they are not designated anywhere as being favored by Allah, their god or by Jehovah the Biblical god. Again, there was a high blacked top mountain in the right order of corroborated row of ducksNo, of course not. Just a marine scientist's techy underwater photographs and videos of wheel and axle shaped corral crusted forms, again at the right place in the row of ducks. For the most part, here at EvC, particularly you, my skeptical counterparts, yes. I believe that to be the case.As for the Christians, I've check out all of their claims for other routes and find them all wanting for any corroborating evidence. Oh, I think I left some of it where you people left your corroborative evidence for multi-verses and BB theory. Well it was, for sure, your summary of my contributions. Edited by Buzsaw, : Update message title.

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BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The Immeasurable Present Eternally Extends the Infinite Past And Infinitely Consumes The Eternal Future.