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Author Topic:   Peanut Gallery
onifre
Member (Idle past 3057 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 769 of 1725 (603126)
02-02-2011 8:55 PM
Reply to: Message 766 by RAZD
02-02-2011 8:23 PM


Re: one question
Why should I accept one claim rather than another?
I didn't ask you to.
Would you accept the two as the only possible sources: Imagination and actual experience.
Would you?
- Oni

This message is a reply to:
 Message 766 by RAZD, posted 02-02-2011 8:23 PM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 770 by RAZD, posted 02-02-2011 9:19 PM onifre has replied
 Message 781 by New Cat's Eye, posted 02-03-2011 10:19 AM onifre has replied

onifre
Member (Idle past 3057 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 772 of 1725 (603133)
02-02-2011 9:28 PM
Reply to: Message 770 by RAZD
02-02-2011 9:19 PM


Re: one question
Curiously, I have seen absolutely no evidence or reason not to consider the possibility of other means,
These other sources would have to be able to speak, yes? They would have to be able to convey the information to you, yes?
Are you saying that there is another species that has this ability on earth?
If not, then it is human ONLY.
And since it is human only, there are only two possible ways a human can know of supernatural beings: they have either made it up using their imagination, or, they actually experience it.
If you are saying there is a 3rd way, then please provide it, because now I'm curious.
If you have no 3rd way, then man up and answer my question, as I did yours.
- Oni
Edited by onifre, : No reason given.
Edited by onifre, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 770 by RAZD, posted 02-02-2011 9:19 PM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 773 by RAZD, posted 02-02-2011 11:08 PM onifre has replied

onifre
Member (Idle past 3057 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 785 of 1725 (603236)
02-03-2011 1:36 PM
Reply to: Message 773 by RAZD
02-02-2011 11:08 PM


Re: one question
To communicate? there are several species capable of communication
With us, dude. With humans.
Now you may say that it comes down to some person somewhere imagining or experiencing the supernatural, then I would say that this would a reasonable conclusion, but that I cannot tell whether communication from such a source is one or the other, nor can I provide evidence to differentiate them.
That's fine. I just wanted to know if you only saw two possible choices, as I do. I didn't think there were more.
So we have narrowed it down to, some can be imagined(you seem to agree that humans can imagine supernatural beings), and some might be experienced, but you can't know which is which.
Lets then break that down:
1) The "imagined" aspect of this equations is a known fact; humans can imagine supernatural beings. You have agreed to this. I think.
2) The "experienced" aspect of this equation is the unknown factor; it is not known if humans can actually experience supernatural beings. Also, this aspect of the equation requires that the supernatural actually exists and can be experienced.
In the 1st, no evidence is required, because it is a known factor.
The 2nd however, requires two essential pieces of evidence - starting with first, the evidence for supernatural beings, and second, the evidence that humans can actually experience them.
Would you agree with my assessment up to this point?
- Oni

This message is a reply to:
 Message 773 by RAZD, posted 02-02-2011 11:08 PM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 941 by RAZD, posted 02-07-2011 7:44 PM onifre has replied

onifre
Member (Idle past 3057 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 786 of 1725 (603237)
02-03-2011 1:44 PM
Reply to: Message 781 by New Cat's Eye
02-03-2011 10:19 AM


Re: one question
Nope. Your mom told me that she had a supernatural experience. It was a source that I neither experienced nor imagined.
Yeah, my mom experienced it. So it remains that there are only two possible sources, either humans imagine it, or they experience it.
If they convey the information to others, that doesn't change that.
Or you could claim that there is evidence that there are no supernatural beings. Okay, lets see it.
The good thing is, no one has claimed that.
Show the evidence that they don't exist.
Show the evidence that they don't exist? Think about that.
- Oni

This message is a reply to:
 Message 781 by New Cat's Eye, posted 02-03-2011 10:19 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 787 by New Cat's Eye, posted 02-03-2011 1:56 PM onifre has replied

onifre
Member (Idle past 3057 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 789 of 1725 (603243)
02-03-2011 2:05 PM
Reply to: Message 787 by New Cat's Eye
02-03-2011 1:56 PM


Re: one question
Sure it does. I didn't experience it and I didn't imagine it, yet I have a source for it.
The point is that the person conveying that info to you either imagined it or actually experienced it.
If my mom told you about the supernatural, you would conclude she either experienced it for real or imagined it.
What I'm asking for is, could she know it any other way other than imagined or experienced it?
Bluegenes claims that he has plenty of evidence that, they don't exist because, the only known source of supernatural beings is imagination.
Show me that quote.
Yeah, I don't why someone would think they could take it that far.
I meant, how can I show you evidence for something that doesn't exist?
- Oni

This message is a reply to:
 Message 787 by New Cat's Eye, posted 02-03-2011 1:56 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 791 by New Cat's Eye, posted 02-03-2011 2:22 PM onifre has replied

onifre
Member (Idle past 3057 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 790 of 1725 (603246)
02-03-2011 2:08 PM
Reply to: Message 788 by New Cat's Eye
02-03-2011 2:00 PM


So then the only known source is the human imagination?
- Oni

This message is a reply to:
 Message 788 by New Cat's Eye, posted 02-03-2011 2:00 PM New Cat's Eye has not replied

onifre
Member (Idle past 3057 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 793 of 1725 (603257)
02-03-2011 2:36 PM
Reply to: Message 791 by New Cat's Eye
02-03-2011 2:22 PM


Or they heard it from somewhere else...
Who either experienced it for real or imagined it for fake.
Or maybe they experienced a little and imagined a lot, or visa versa.
Yeah, experience, imagined, both, whatever. But just those two.
I'm still seeing a false dichotomy.
Yet you can't show me a third source?
bluegenes writes:
"All supernatural beings are figments of the human imagination".
This is a high level of confidence theory.
They're debating on whether it is a theory or not. It's just the start of the theory.
That is not the same as making the absolute statement that supernatural things don't exist.
How can you have a theory without evidence?
But we do, there is evidence that the human imagination can come up with that stuff. That is in fact the only known source. It's a pretty good theory. Certainly not the end of the question though.
Sure, but the theory that that is all there is, is unfalsifiable.
The theory that that is all that is known is not, which is the actual theory.
Too, if a supernatural source could be shown, then it wouldn't supernatural.
Agreed. So then the only source for the supernatural would remain the imagination, because if you can experience it (which is the only other source) it is not supernatural.
- Oni
Edited by onifre, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 791 by New Cat's Eye, posted 02-03-2011 2:22 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 796 by New Cat's Eye, posted 02-03-2011 3:15 PM onifre has replied
 Message 826 by RAZD, posted 02-04-2011 11:39 AM onifre has replied

onifre
Member (Idle past 3057 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 799 of 1725 (603288)
02-03-2011 4:08 PM
Reply to: Message 796 by New Cat's Eye
02-03-2011 3:15 PM


A bit of both would be a thrid one...
But still a combination of the two.
Also, somebody else telling me about it is not me either imagining it nor experiencing it.
So then that person imagined it or experienced it. And if they heard it, then the person that told them either imagined it or experienced it. And so on.
It remains just two. Even when combined, it is just two.
Showing that some are imagined isn't showing that all are imagined.
Correct. But it is a starting point, from which, other sources can be introduced. Up till now, the only other has been "experience." Something that cannot be evidenced objectively.
So it then becomes "all" tentitively untill objective evidence of some other source is produced.
But yes, imagination is the only thing we can show scientifically.
So as a scientific theory it holds up. End of argument.
Why is this being dragged out further?
- Oni

This message is a reply to:
 Message 796 by New Cat's Eye, posted 02-03-2011 3:15 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 800 by New Cat's Eye, posted 02-03-2011 4:13 PM onifre has replied

onifre
Member (Idle past 3057 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 801 of 1725 (603295)
02-03-2011 4:28 PM
Reply to: Message 800 by New Cat's Eye
02-03-2011 4:13 PM


Except that its unfalsifiable.
Sure it is, you just need to show how the human imagination can't come up with supernatural beings. It is already accepted that it can, even by RAZD. So show that it can't and it is falsified.
Plus, he claimed he had plenty of evidence to support it. I haven't seen it.
You haven't seen evidence that the human imagination can come up with supernatural beings? C'mon, dude.
- Oni

This message is a reply to:
 Message 800 by New Cat's Eye, posted 02-03-2011 4:13 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 802 by xongsmith, posted 02-03-2011 4:34 PM onifre has replied
 Message 803 by New Cat's Eye, posted 02-03-2011 4:38 PM onifre has replied

onifre
Member (Idle past 3057 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 807 of 1725 (603321)
02-03-2011 7:01 PM
Reply to: Message 802 by xongsmith
02-03-2011 4:34 PM


Wud up xong,
Did you see RAZD's Yucatan Meteor Extinction example? No human being experienced it. No human being imagined it.
I did see the example, but it was a terrible example. Humans can see the hole, can't they?
So a third way is by scientific analysis of the evidence.
Yup, and the evidence after analysis is that there are only two possible ways: either human's imagined it, or, human's can experience it subjectively.
The first is known to be a fact, the second is the unknown. Can humans experience it? Is there actually something to experience?
We don't know.
So...the only known source, tentitively, is the imagination.
- Oni

This message is a reply to:
 Message 802 by xongsmith, posted 02-03-2011 4:34 PM xongsmith has not replied

onifre
Member (Idle past 3057 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 808 of 1725 (603322)
02-03-2011 7:07 PM
Reply to: Message 803 by New Cat's Eye
02-03-2011 4:38 PM


How would I show that?
Don't care, the point is that if you do it would be falsified. So it is falsifiable.
Is that what he's referring to as "plenty of evidence"?
As we have already agreed, it is the only evidence.
- Oni

This message is a reply to:
 Message 803 by New Cat's Eye, posted 02-03-2011 4:38 PM New Cat's Eye has not replied

onifre
Member (Idle past 3057 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 817 of 1725 (603348)
02-03-2011 11:09 PM
Reply to: Message 815 by Coyote
02-03-2011 10:35 PM


Re: The issue is settled?
I am wrong for asking for evidence of the supernatural that so many folks around the world believe in?
You are correct to ask.
RAZD has admitted there are only two possible conclusions: either it is imagined, or humans can experience it.
The imagined part is common sense; humans can imagine things, supernatural things, any thing.
The experienced part however not only requires that a human can actually experience the supernatural being - BUT - that the supernatural being actually exists. Obviously there needs to be proof that there is something there to experience in the first place.
So it starts with the question you are asking first: Is there evidence for the supernatural?
If the answer is no, then who cares about the rest of this crap.
If there is evidence for it, then it can follow that humans may be able to experience it. But until the supernatural is evidenced, nothing can be concluded about whether or not humans can experience them.
The imagination as the only source is the only one objectively evidenced.
You are totally right to call what he is doing, silly debating tricks.
- Oni

This message is a reply to:
 Message 815 by Coyote, posted 02-03-2011 10:35 PM Coyote has not replied

onifre
Member (Idle past 3057 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 818 of 1725 (603349)
02-03-2011 11:14 PM
Reply to: Message 816 by xongsmith
02-03-2011 11:08 PM


Re: The issue is settled?
He has to provide evidence that every single scientifically known source of supernatural beings is from human imagination.
Your bro has admitted to only two possible sources: the imagination of a human, or the experience of a human.
To experience, there needs to be something there to experience. Is there proof that there is something there to experience? No.
So that only leaves our other source alone as the only evidenced one.
- Oni

This message is a reply to:
 Message 816 by xongsmith, posted 02-03-2011 11:08 PM xongsmith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 820 by xongsmith, posted 02-03-2011 11:39 PM onifre has replied
 Message 828 by New Cat's Eye, posted 02-04-2011 11:57 AM onifre has replied

onifre
Member (Idle past 3057 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 830 of 1725 (603429)
02-04-2011 12:37 PM
Reply to: Message 828 by New Cat's Eye
02-04-2011 11:57 AM


Re: The issue is settled?
There's this supernatural guy named Jesus, I'm sure you're aware of him, so did you imagine him or did you experience him?
It's not this fucking hard fellas.
Am I the orignial source of the Jesus story? No. Of course I heard about it. That is logical, but not my point at all.
Who ever the fuck originally created the Jesus story (for sake of argument, lets say the 4 dudes that wrote the gospels) they either made that shit up, or, actually experienced Jesus in the real. There are no other possiblities. It's so fucking simple that I'm suprised that we can't move past it. It's not even my main point.
- Oni

This message is a reply to:
 Message 828 by New Cat's Eye, posted 02-04-2011 11:57 AM New Cat's Eye has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 834 by xongsmith, posted 02-04-2011 1:13 PM onifre has replied

onifre
Member (Idle past 3057 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 831 of 1725 (603432)
02-04-2011 12:48 PM
Reply to: Message 826 by RAZD
02-04-2011 11:39 AM


Re: confirmation bias?
Without evidence it is an untested hypothesis.
When an hypothesis is tested it is either invalidated or it provides objective empirical evidence that it is in fact true in those specific instances.
ie you would have evidence similar to : the IPU has been shown to be a product of human imagination because of evidence XYZ, documenting it being produced by human imagination. This of course, in proper scientific process, would be published in a scientific peer reviewdjournal.
What evidence RAZD? The human imagination can imagine supernatural beings.
There is also the claim that it can experience supernatural beings.
The first is a fact; we already know it can do that. The second is not a fact; we don't know if it actually can experience the supernatural PLUS we don't know if the supernatural actually exists to be experienced.
The imagination remains the only KNOWN source.
But I have shown you why this is irrelevant: an event that was not directly imagined nor directly experienced
You gave me the Yucatan example, which was a poor example because you can see the hole and know something happened. Why? Because if you couldn't SEE it in the real and now, then no one would have known there was anything to investigate.
So it is directly experienced, as in, we can see it.
For you to be able to narrow it down to only human imagination you need to eliminate the other possibilities
I didn't. You and I narrowed it down to either human imagination or human experience - remember, we are discussing supernatural beings.
I eliminate the experience because it is untestable, and unknowable. So we remain with only one KNOWN source: the imagination.
- Oni

This message is a reply to:
 Message 826 by RAZD, posted 02-04-2011 11:39 AM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 839 by RAZD, posted 02-04-2011 2:40 PM onifre has replied

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