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Author Topic:   biblical archaeology
Amlodhi
Inactive Member


Message 1 of 128 (60345)
10-09-2003 8:07 PM


Hi Rock Hound, etal . . .
It was suggested by IrishRochhound that we start a new thread here as the subject of biblical archaeology is off topic for the "faith & healing" forum.
Though it was, originally, planned to simply review the points that messenjaH had posted, there has since been several additional points raised on this subject.
I would like to suggest then, that either messenjaH or Pringlesguy7 choose one point and submit it here for discussion. Multiple points in one post are entirely too time and space consuming to address adequately. Once the relevant information concerning the first point has been evaluated, subsequent points can follow in the same (one at a time) format.
If all who have expressed the desire contribute, each of us will be in a better position to become aware of the available facts and, thus, to assess the implications.
I would also like to express my hope that this will remain a discussion as opposed to a battle. Nothing we say here will change the actual facts of objective history (whatever they may have been), but if each of us is able to learn more about these facts from each other, we will all have won.
So I will ask messenjaH or Pringlesguy7 to choose one from among the archaeological finds you have mentioned, and I look forward to the discussion.
Namaste'
Amlodhi

Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by NosyNed, posted 10-09-2003 8:29 PM Amlodhi has replied
 Message 3 by Trump won, posted 10-09-2003 8:45 PM Amlodhi has not replied
 Message 23 by Trump won, posted 10-12-2003 9:46 PM Amlodhi has replied
 Message 63 by Brian, posted 10-22-2003 8:54 AM Amlodhi has replied

  
NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8996
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 2 of 128 (60347)
10-09-2003 8:29 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Amlodhi
10-09-2003 8:07 PM


I know nothing about this topic but will be watching it with interest. One little thought I had though is:
Is there any undiscoverd archeological evidence that would be really, really nice to find?
For an extreme example, there was some excitement over the James Ossirary (spelling?) which turned out to be a hoax. Wouldn't an ossiary with validated inscription something like "Mary, mother of Jesus of Nazerath who rose on the third day" and dated to say AD 50 or so be a cool find. Giving at least a scrap of evidence that there was an historical Jesus.
Some evidence of the exodus in the desert might be pretty cool too even thought the thread discussing that seems to make it clear that it is not likly to be found.
Of the supposed "90%" that is missing, what would we most like to find?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Amlodhi, posted 10-09-2003 8:07 PM Amlodhi has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by Amlodhi, posted 10-09-2003 10:05 PM NosyNed has replied
 Message 75 by Buzsaw, posted 01-06-2006 12:14 PM NosyNed has not replied

  
Trump won 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1240 days)
Posts: 1928
Joined: 01-12-2004


Message 3 of 128 (60350)
10-09-2003 8:45 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Amlodhi
10-09-2003 8:07 PM


I'll join in as soon as I can.... homework, a job soon,sports...................AAAAAAAAAAH

This message is a reply to:
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Amlodhi
Inactive Member


Message 4 of 128 (60352)
10-09-2003 10:05 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by NosyNed
10-09-2003 8:29 PM


Hello NosyNed,
quote:
Originally posted by NosyNed
Is there any undiscoverd archeological evidence that would be really, really nice to find?
How about a pottery remnant with the inscription, "Dear Mr. Pilate, here is some cleansing oil for washing dirty hands"? (Sorry, I cadged this from the movie; "The Body".)
Seriously, of course there are things that, if found, would change the entire paradigm of biblical criticism.
quote:
NosyNed:
. . .there was some excitement over the James Ossirary (spelling?)
As was demonstrated in the furor over the James Ossuary, it is usually prudent to subdue preconceptions and thus not (as I've heard it said) "trip over one's precepts and come sprawling to a conclusion".
Similar overzealous behavior arises from more mundane finds. The dating of the Siloam tunnel is a case in point. Although there was contention from some corners, and although the name of Hezekiah was absent from the Siloam inscription, the majority of biblical scholars had no problem with accepting that the tunnel was built in Hezekiah's time to divert a water source inside the walls of Jerusalem. We even have the writings of Sennacherib (From the Oriental Institute Prism of Sennacherib)which speaks of his siege of Jerusalem. Does this prove the veracity of the biblical account?
Contrary to the further biblical account concerning the outcome of this siege, the Sennacherib inscription says, "As to Hezekiah the Jew, he did not submit to my yoke. I laid siege to 46 of his strong cities, walled forts and to the countless small villages in their vicinity, and conquered them. . . . Himself (Hezekiah), I made a prisoner in Jerusalem, his royal residence, like a bird in a cage. . . . Thus I reduced his country, but I still increased the tribute and the "Katru'"-presents (due) to me (as his) overlord which I imposed (later) upon him beyond the former tribute, to be delivered annually."
(Excerpted from: "Ancient Near Eastern Texts Relating to the Old Testament", James B. Pritchard, ed.; Princeton University Press, New Jersey, 1969.)
As the above inscription demonstrates, verifying the date of the tunnel is in no way the same as verifying the veracity of the biblical account of the siege.
Since Sennacherib's seige occured in 701 b.c., it surprised no one that the tunnel would date to 700 b.c. (+/- 100 yrs), although I was mildly surprised at the apologist's sudden advocacy of the validity of radiometric and carbon dating techniques.
quote:
NosyNed
Of the supposed "90%" that is missing, what would we most like to find?
This supposition of 90% has not been demonstrated. Perhaps we will see some support for this position during the discussion.
I hope you will join us.
Namaste'
Amlodhi
[This message has been edited by Amlodhi, 10-09-2003]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by NosyNed, posted 10-09-2003 8:29 PM NosyNed has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by Chiroptera, posted 10-09-2003 10:55 PM Amlodhi has replied
 Message 6 by NosyNed, posted 10-09-2003 11:14 PM Amlodhi has not replied

  
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 5 of 128 (60354)
10-09-2003 10:55 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by Amlodhi
10-09-2003 10:05 PM


Hi, Amlodhi.
quote:
Originally posted by NosyNed
Is there any undiscoverd archeological evidence that would be really, really nice to find?
How about a pottery remnant with the inscription, "Dear Mr. Pilate, here is some cleansing oil for washing dirty hands"? (Sorry, I cadged this from the movie; "The Body".)
  —Amlodhi
How about unequivocal evidence for the existence of King David or Solomon? Do we have that, yet?
warren

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by Amlodhi, posted 10-09-2003 10:05 PM Amlodhi has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by Pringlesguy7, posted 10-10-2003 12:53 AM Chiroptera has not replied
 Message 9 by Amlodhi, posted 10-10-2003 1:20 AM Chiroptera has not replied

  
NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8996
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 6 of 128 (60357)
10-09-2003 11:14 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by Amlodhi
10-09-2003 10:05 PM


Join? Probably not. I know effectively nothing about the topic. I will watch with interest though. I may have to ask for some clarification now and then.

This message is a reply to:
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Pringlesguy7
Inactive Member


Message 7 of 128 (60373)
10-10-2003 12:42 AM


well one interesting thing they did find last year, was a box, with an inscription reading "James, son of Joseph, brother of Jesus". I forget what it was exactly called. I didnt read much up on it to see if it was really authentic or not. BUt it would be interesting if it were true.
What kind of point would you like me to bring up? I thought I raised a few good ones in my last humungous email in response to john. I dont know everything, but I'll look into stuff. and I love learning about this, and having my knowledge tested and expanded.
------------------
"We may ignore, but we can nowhere evade, the presence of God."

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by Amlodhi, posted 10-10-2003 1:42 AM Pringlesguy7 has not replied
 Message 11 by NosyNed, posted 10-10-2003 2:50 AM Pringlesguy7 has not replied

  
Pringlesguy7
Inactive Member


Message 8 of 128 (60375)
10-10-2003 12:53 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by Chiroptera
10-09-2003 10:55 PM


warren,
excellent question, you need to read my email in the prayer faith and healing category, There are many remains from some of their city gates, towers, walls, and buildings scattered here and there. I'll give you just a taste of it, but if you want more...i encourage you to read it.
(mine is message 79 of 80)
http://www.biblical-archaeology.net/
"the Shishak Relief depicts Egypt's victory over King Rehoboam in about 925 BC, when Solomon's Temple in Judah was plundered. This is the exact event mentioned in 1 Kings 14 and 2 Chronicles 12."
http://www.biblical-archaeology.net/
"Excavations in the north have also revealed the city of Dan, which was a Canaanite stronghold conquered by Israel (specifically, the tribe of Dan) around 1150 BC (Judges 18). The rebuilt city, which became the northern boundary of Israel, has delivered a wealth of artifacts with biblical importance. The southern boundary of Israel was Beersheba, which became a fortified city during the period of King Solomon (1 Kings 4:25). Excavations between 1969 and 1976 have revealed massive walls, gates, wells and storehouses consistent with biblical accounts"
------------------
"We may ignore, but we can nowhere evade, the presence of God."

This message is a reply to:
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Amlodhi
Inactive Member


Message 9 of 128 (60377)
10-10-2003 1:20 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by Chiroptera
10-09-2003 10:55 PM


Hello Chiroptera,
quote:
Originally posted by Chiroptera
How about unequivocal evidence for the existence of King David or Solomon? Do we have that, yet?
Unequivocal? No.
It is getting late here and, as I mentioned in the OP, I hope we can take each of these points one at a time and discuss them in depth.
Without reviewing sources, however, IIRC the only (alleged) reference to King David is the Tel-Dan inscription. One of the reasons it is controversial is because the phrase, "Bytdwd" (house of David) has no word separation. This grammatical form is usually indicative of a town as in "Bytlehem". Clans or ruling houses, OTOH, are usually in the noun construct form which requires hyphenation, i.e. "Byt-Dwd".
A full evaluation of the Tel-Dan inscription and the controversy surrounding the alleged uncovering of Solomon's stables, etc. will have to await their turn. None of these points can be adequately evaluated if they're not taken one at a time.
Namaste'
Amlodhi

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by Chiroptera, posted 10-09-2003 10:55 PM Chiroptera has not replied

  
Amlodhi
Inactive Member


Message 10 of 128 (60378)
10-10-2003 1:42 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by Pringlesguy7
10-10-2003 12:42 AM


Hi Pringlesguy7,
quote:
Originally posted by Pringlesguy7
well one interesting thing they did find last year, was a box, with an inscription reading "James, son of Joseph, brother of Jesus". I forget what it was exactly called.
Pringlesguy7, this was the James Ossuary and it has been convincingly shown to be a fraud.
You see though, this is the type of thing I would like to avoid. When numerous points (interspersed with links) are thrown about all at once, no point is sufficiently examined. Thus, we still have people pointing to the ossuary as (supposed) proof of biblical veracity.
Please choose one point from the list you posted on the other forum. Then let us proceed to find out everything there is to know about that one point for all to see (no links) and thereby make an educated evaluation. Then we can move to the next point.
Also, again, I would like to keep this discussion not only civil, but also, focused on history and archaeology. Biblical references are certainly relevant, but faith based conjecture should remain in the other forum.
So choose your topic and let's have some fun learning all about it.
Namaste'
Amlodhi

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by Pringlesguy7, posted 10-10-2003 12:42 AM Pringlesguy7 has not replied

  
NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8996
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 11 of 128 (60384)
10-10-2003 2:50 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by Pringlesguy7
10-10-2003 12:42 AM


The ossuary is authentic. The inscription has been demonstarted to be a fake. It is no longer an interesting issue.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by Pringlesguy7, posted 10-10-2003 12:42 AM Pringlesguy7 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by Amlodhi, posted 10-10-2003 11:47 AM NosyNed has replied

  
Amlodhi
Inactive Member


Message 12 of 128 (60422)
10-10-2003 11:47 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by NosyNed
10-10-2003 2:50 AM


Clarification
quote:
Originally posted by NosyNed
The ossuary is authentic. The inscription has been demonstarted to be a fake.
You are, of course, absolutely correct. Thanks for clarifying my potentially misleading statement.
P.S. You wouldn't be holding out on us, would you Ned?
Namaste'
Amlodhi

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by NosyNed, posted 10-10-2003 2:50 AM NosyNed has replied

Replies to this message:
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NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8996
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 13 of 128 (60423)
10-10-2003 11:58 AM
Reply to: Message 12 by Amlodhi
10-10-2003 11:47 AM


Re: Clarification
Holding out? I used to be a consultant (maybe will be again soon) and am good at pretending to know what I am talking about.
It is all in the attitude for 'tude is everything!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by Amlodhi, posted 10-10-2003 11:47 AM Amlodhi has not replied

  
IrishRockhound
Member (Idle past 4436 days)
Posts: 569
From: Ireland
Joined: 05-19-2003


Message 14 of 128 (60429)
10-10-2003 1:14 PM


Hey Amlodhi, sorry I didn't post here sooner.
As far as I know, biblical archaeology started with excavations in Egypt, as people began looking for evidence of the Israel Sojourn there. Initially nothing was found.
I find this area interesting because there might indeed be evidence that the Israelites were kept as slaves in Egypt, but no evidence was uncovered because archaeologists were looking in the wrong place and the wrong time. Having read David Rohl's book "A Test of Time", I suggest that the historical figures of the Old Testement might have existed, in particular David, Solomon, Moses and whatnot.
This shows that whatever else people may think, the bible is not entirely a work of fiction.
The Rock Hound

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by Brian, posted 10-10-2003 1:37 PM IrishRockhound has replied
 Message 17 by Amlodhi, posted 10-10-2003 2:20 PM IrishRockhound has replied
 Message 19 by PaulK, posted 10-10-2003 3:46 PM IrishRockhound has replied

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 15 of 128 (60431)
10-10-2003 1:37 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by IrishRockhound
10-10-2003 1:14 PM


Hi,
David Rohl is the Kent Hovind of the archaeology world, he fails to support the vast majority of his claims.
Brian

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by IrishRockhound, posted 10-10-2003 1:14 PM IrishRockhound has replied

Replies to this message:
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