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Author
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Topic: Thoughts on the Creator Conclusion
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ICANT
Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: 03-12-2007 Member Rating: 1.6
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Message 12 of 187 (603938)
02-09-2011 3:02 AM
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Reply to: Message 7 by Jon
02-09-2011 12:32 AM
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Re: Initial Questions
Hi Jon,
Jon writes: What do you suppose the logical and rational argument to be that would support the existence of a Creator? Speaking for myself. The universe and everything in it exists. The standard theory puts forth that the universe had a beginning. If the universe had a beginning to exist whatever caused it to begin to exist would be the creator. An absence of anything can not bring into existence something. Therefore there is a creator as we exist, along with the universe and everything in it.
Jon writes: What makes you suppose something must have existed before other things? What role might empiricism have played in bringing you to this conclusion? I can't speak for Goldrush but I have never had anyone explain how everything in our universe could begin to exist in an absence of anything.
Jon writes: If the Creator is the vision which empiricists lack, how might they come to see this Creator? Jesus put it this way, in Luke 18:25 "For it is easier for a camel to go through a needle's eye, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God." A rich man is a person that has everything he needs therefore he does not have to depend upon anyone for anything. An empiricists is a person who has everything they need in what they think the facts really are. Therefore he does not have to depend upon anyone for anything.
Jon writes: If all humans exist within the empirical world, how might anyone come to experience the Creator? Thats easy. Jesus explains it this way:
Matthew 18:3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven. A person must be as trusting as a little child. Then they must be born again of the Spirit of God.
John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. 3:4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born? 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Everyone alive today has had the water birth Jesus was talking about, which is the brith from the placenta filled with water. Everyone has not been born of the Spirit of God. To do that you must be as that little child and take God at His Word believing that He is and is a rewarder of those that seek Him. God has offered a free full pardon to all mankind all they have to do is receive it. But a man/woman that has need of nothing will not receive it because they are satisfied with what they have. But once you have met Him face to face you will experience Him. When you have experienced Him you will never be alone again. God Bless, Edited by ICANT, : correct spelling
"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 7 by Jon, posted 02-09-2011 12:32 AM | | Jon has not replied |
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ICANT
Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: 03-12-2007 Member Rating: 1.6
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Message 25 of 187 (604019)
02-09-2011 4:08 PM
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Reply to: Message 15 by Phage0070
02-09-2011 6:06 AM
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Re: Initial Questions
Hi Phage,
Phage00070 writes: Describe a known mechanism through which something can be brought into existence, I know of no known mechanism whereby something can be brought into existence from an absence of anything. I don't know if you can vision an absence of anything but if you can you should be able to conclude that no thing can begin to exist in or out of no thing. The evidence for such a statement would be: Stephen Hawking's imaginary time in which the universe existed. As well as the Hawking/Turok instanton. The various String theories. The search for the God particle. All of these are efforts to provide something that can produce the universe and everything in it. God Bless,
"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 15 by Phage0070, posted 02-09-2011 6:06 AM | | Phage0070 has replied |
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ICANT
Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: 03-12-2007 Member Rating: 1.6
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Re: Initial Questions
Hi Dr,
Dr Adequate writes: * "Whatever causes 'fairy rings' is a fairy." * "Whatever caused the Giant's Causeway was a giant." * "Whatever causes frost on the windowpanes is Jack Frost." * "Whatever causes me to fall asleep is the Sandman." I don't know what causes 'fairy rings' I have never seen one. I also have never seen the Giant's Causeway. I know condensation and cold causes frost on the windowpanes. I have no idea what causes you to fall asleep. I can look up into the sky, and down at my feet on ground and conclude the heaven and the earth exist. The standard theory says they had a beginning. If they did not exist but now exist. How did they begin to exist out of an absence of anything. I have been told over and over that there is nothing outside of the universe. Therefore it would be a self produced something out of an absence of anything.
Dr Adeqauate writes: When we say "creator" we do not just mean "whatever caused the universe to exist"; we mean someone with personality and will and intelligence who knew what he was about when he made the universe So you would require God to be a human being. Well I am not included in that 'we'. I hold that whatever caused the universe and everything in it to begin to exist would be God. God being everything that is, has ever been or ever will be. I have been told that is what existed in that very small, very dense, very hot something the size of a pin point at T=10 -43. To me God is eternal existence, and everything that does exists does so at His beck and call, by His permission. God Bless,
"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
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ICANT
Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: 03-12-2007 Member Rating: 1.6
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Message 30 of 187 (604028)
02-09-2011 5:08 PM
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Reply to: Message 27 by Phage0070
02-09-2011 4:23 PM
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Re: Initial Questions
Hi Phage,
Phage0070 writes: You also don't know of any known mechanism whereby something can be brought into existence from the presence of something. I was a contractor for over 30 years and created many things out of existing material. So yes I do understand how things can be created out of existing materials.
Phage0070 writes: You don't understand how something could come into existence from nothing. Correct. So why don't you start a thread and enlighten me, and all those who are looking for the theory of everything. God Bless,
"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 27 by Phage0070, posted 02-09-2011 4:23 PM | | Phage0070 has replied |
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ICANT
Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: 03-12-2007 Member Rating: 1.6
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Message 32 of 187 (604030)
02-09-2011 5:17 PM
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Reply to: Message 29 by Taq
02-09-2011 4:53 PM
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Re: Initial Questions
Hi Taq,
Taq writes: If frost did not exist before but does exist now does that mean the frost came from nothing? Does the frost also require a creator deity? No, since the frost is created out of existing materials it does not need a creator deity to form it out of an absence of anything. God Bless,
"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 29 by Taq, posted 02-09-2011 4:53 PM | | Taq has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 48 by Taq, posted 02-10-2011 12:14 AM | | ICANT has replied |
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ICANT
Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: 03-12-2007 Member Rating: 1.6
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Message 33 of 187 (604031)
02-09-2011 5:27 PM
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Reply to: Message 31 by Phage0070
02-09-2011 5:09 PM
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Re: Initial Questions
Hi Phage,
Phage0070 writes: No, thats existing material being rearranged. There was no new material created. Try again. Yes that is rearranging existing material into a new creation such as a house or a cabinet. There is no way I could go to the jobsite and set up my tools and build a house without existing materials. So how could the universe and everything in it begin to exist out of an absence of any existing material, in an absence of any place to begin to exist? Litteraly an absence of any thing. If you would like to discuss this any further please start a thread and we can continue but here we are off topic. God Bless,
"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 31 by Phage0070, posted 02-09-2011 5:09 PM | | Phage0070 has not replied |
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ICANT
Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: 03-12-2007 Member Rating: 1.6
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Message 51 of 187 (604090)
02-10-2011 12:42 AM
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Reply to: Message 48 by Taq
02-10-2011 12:14 AM
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Re: Initial Questions
Hi Taq,
Taq writes: Then why can't the universe, which has a beginning like frost, also come from something? I agree the universe came from something. That is the point I am making when I say: But it did not come from an absence of anything. It had to come from something. An absence of anything would mean: There is no thing. No space for a thing to exist in. No vacuum for a thing to exist in. No imaginary time for the universe to exist in. No branes to bump into each other or existence for them to exist in. No existence of any kind. There would be none existence. God Bless,
"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 48 by Taq, posted 02-10-2011 12:14 AM | | Taq has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 53 by Taq, posted 02-10-2011 1:03 AM | | ICANT has replied |
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ICANT
Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: 03-12-2007 Member Rating: 1.6
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Re: Initial Questions
Hi Dr,
Dr Adequate writes: So would it therefore be correct to say that you believe in Jack Frost, No.
Dr Adequate writes: and that you believe that he is condensation and cold? If I am not mistaken the condensation is moisture that is in the air which would form on the windowpane due to the difference in the outside temperature and the inside temperature. So what does this have to do with something coming from an absence of anything? Or existence begining to exist from non existence?
Dr Adequate writes: I do not; and I am unable to conceive by what confusion of ideas you arrived at that bizarre conclusion. You seemed to be giving God human traits so you could better understand Him.
Dr Adequate writes: But the word "God" has a meaning. Yes. So does the Hebrew word אלהים translated God. It is a masculine plural noun meaning: a) rulers, judges b) divine ones According to Genesis 2:4 the LORD God created the Heaven and the Earth. The Hebrew word יהוה transliterated Yehovah means the existing one. Thus a singular existing one that has mind, body, and Spirit. God Bless,
"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
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ICANT
Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: 03-12-2007 Member Rating: 1.6
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Message 56 of 187 (604107)
02-10-2011 1:41 AM
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Reply to: Message 53 by Taq
02-10-2011 1:03 AM
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Re: Initial Questions
Hi Taq,
Taq writes: I agree the universe came from something.
So do I. Then what was that something? Where did it come from? God Bless,
"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 53 by Taq, posted 02-10-2011 1:03 AM | | Taq has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 57 by Taq, posted 02-10-2011 1:48 AM | | ICANT has replied |
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ICANT
Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: 03-12-2007 Member Rating: 1.6
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Tree
Hi Dr,
Dr Adequate writes: A tree is produced by another tree (via a seed) without any exercise of intelligence at all. Are you sure about that? The seed has DNA which contains the information to produce that specific tree. Just like the blueprint is used to build a particular house. If intelligence was required to produce the blueprint to build the house so was intelligence required to build the blueprint in the seed to construct the tree. God Bless,
"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
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ICANT
Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: 03-12-2007 Member Rating: 1.6
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Message 60 of 187 (604114)
02-10-2011 2:02 AM
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Reply to: Message 57 by Taq
02-10-2011 1:48 AM
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Re: Initial Questions
Hi Taq,
Taq writes: Don't know, but am very interested in finding out. Well until you have verifiable reproducable evidence. that gives that answer I am going to hold on to the Existing One creating the Heaven and the Earth in the beginning. God Bless,
"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 57 by Taq, posted 02-10-2011 1:48 AM | | Taq has not replied |
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ICANT
Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: 03-12-2007 Member Rating: 1.6
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Re: Initial Questions
Hi Dr,
Dr Adequate writes: It does, however, have something to do with your attempt to redefine the creator as "whatever caused the universe to exist", which is the subject that I was actually discussing. I am not trying to redefine creator. I was just making room for the very very hot very very dense very very small whatever it was that didn't exist at T=0 but did exist at T=10 -43 to be the cause of there being something rather than nothing. I have said and maintain if there was something that materalized and caused the universe to begin to exist it would be God, regardless of what type of entity it was. But actually GR breaks down and the math does not give us existence at T=0. Yet at T=10 -43 we have existence. Conclusion: There is non existence at T=0. The universe exists at T=10 -43. This required the universe to begin to exist from non existence. Or an eternal existing creator was necessary for the universe to begin to exist. Or maybe we are just brains in a jar in a lab that all this information has been programned into and we don't really exist.
Dr Adequate writes: No; but I require him to have at least one human trait that of sentience, in order for him to qualify as God at all. If he doesn't have that, he isn't a him, he's an it. Actually the creator would have to be the eternal existing one who was all knowledge and power. God Bless,
"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
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ICANT
Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: 03-12-2007 Member Rating: 1.6
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Message 65 of 187 (604125)
02-10-2011 3:14 AM
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Reply to: Message 61 by crashfrog
02-10-2011 2:29 AM
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Re: Tree
Hi crash,
crashfrog writes: No, this isn't accurate. Nothing in the DNA of a tree is anything like a "blueprint"; the arrangement of branches and leaves to the trunk, which is mostly what we consider the individual characteristic of a tree, isn't determined or represented in the DNA. At the core, however, tree seeds are similar and develop like other type of seed. Within the seed is an embryo plant, an undeveloped version of the tree that usually resembles a microscopic stem or root. This tiny embryo has the same DNA as its parent trees, all the encoded information that will direct its cells to reproduce in the correct fashion to make every part of the tree. Around the embryo is usually some type of starch or sugar food source. These surrounding food shell gives the seed a necessary burst of energy when it is first beginning to grow, allowing to quickly plant roots and grow several small leaves, enough for it to start creating energy on its own. This embryo-and-food combination is then covered by a seed coating.
Source Poplar is the third plant to date to have its genome completely sequenced. The first, back in 2000, was a weed, Arabidopsis thaliana (which has 4 times less DNA than poplar). Rice was the second, in 2004. Populus trichocarpa is one of the tallest broadleaf hardwood trees in the western U.S., native to the Pacific coast from San Diego to Alaska. The sequenced DNA was isolated from a specimen collected along the banks of the Nisqually River in Washington State. This species is already used in timber and paper industries. "Fifteen years from now, fully domesticated varieties of the tree, optimally tuned to grow faster and longer, better resist insects and disease and require less water and nutrients, could be growing like any other crop on tree farms spread across large regions of the United States", researchers said. Scientists have to identify - amongst poplars' 45,500 genes - those responsible to its growth, to manage a selective breeding and genes manipulation to achieve desirable traits. The main goal is to create a variety to be used as a source of ethanol, which can be used as fuel. Currently, ethanol is more expensive and difficult to produce from wood than it is from crops like corn. The information can be changed to alter the growth of the tree. Maybe you are right and nobody else knows what they are talking about. God Bless,
"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 61 by crashfrog, posted 02-10-2011 2:29 AM | | crashfrog has replied |
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ICANT
Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: 03-12-2007 Member Rating: 1.6
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Re: Tree
Hi Dr,
Dr Adequate writes: But we know for a fact that the DNA of a tree is in fact produced without any intelligence whatsoever by another tree or trees. What does a seed producing a tree from its seed have to do with the intelligence required to create the information in the DNA in the first seed? God Bless,
"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
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ICANT
Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: 03-12-2007 Member Rating: 1.6
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Re: Initial Questions
Hi Dr, Are you that dense?
Dr Adequate writes: And this is just as foolish as saying that anything that causes frost is Jack Frost no matter what kind of entity it is. How do you compare something being produced out of existing materal, and something being produced out of an absence of anything? There is no comparison. That is like comparing apples and oranges and concluding they are the same thing. God Bless,
"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
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