|
Register | Sign In |
|
QuickSearch
Thread ▼ Details |
|
Thread Info
|
|
|
Author | Topic: Evidence (RAZD and Petrophysics only) | |||||||||||||||||||
RAZD Member (Idle past 1433 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
petrophysics and RAZD only Hi petrophysics, thanks, this should be interesting. I realize you probably have already read most of the following on the other threads, but I want to lay it out for all who read this thread.
RAZD has proposed a topic which no one wishes to take on, that would be the atheists here, who have no evidence for their position. RAZD, I am a #1 absolute deist. God does exist. I do not regard my position as illogical or irrational, and I am prepared to defend that. Yes, and that would include presenting my evidence for my position. This is in response to The persistent question of evidence ... Message 1, which has not been promoted (yet):
quote: from Message 508 of the Faith vs Skepticism - Why faith? thread we have:
quote: Based on this analysis of the logical structures, positions (1), (2), (6) & (7) are not logical unless supported by objective empirical evidence, while positions (3), (4) and (5) are logical positions that are valid and rational positions. Positions (3) and (5) have added opinion to the logically on an agnostic position, but this is recognized as opinion and subject to change with contrary objective empirical evidence being presented. The evidence needed is the evidence needed for level III in this scale:
Level I are hypothetical concepts, unsupported by any evidence, just opinion. Conclusions are based on opinion alone. Level II are possibly valid concepts, supported by subjective evidence, evidence that has not been invalidated. Conclusions based on this evidence involve opinions about the validity of the evidence. Level II are probably valid concepts, supported by objective empirical evidence and by repeated testing, Conclusions based on this evidence involve test results and are the kinds of conclusions made in science: tentative, can be treated as true until invalidated. These are the basic parameters that I have used in discussing this topic with others (including many atheists): do you agree with them? I have looked for months here where the atheists could present no evidence. Yes, it amuses me the number of times I have seen atheists claim that they have "plenty of evidence," but when asked to present it, all they can come up with is their opinion/s and logically false arguments -- and as such only meet the requirements of level I concepts. (the bluegenes Challenge (bluegenes and RAZD only)Great Debate[/bgcolor] the bluegenes Challenge is the latest example of this).
You do know what a koan is? My questions will be on topic even though you may not see it immediately. Please just answer them or say you can't. Yes I know what a koan is. Koan - Wikipedia
quote: Zen Koans | AshidaKim.com1. A Cup of Tea | Zen Koans quote: Hence open-minded skepticism, not just skepticism, is necessary. You need to have room to consider other possibilities.
I do not regard my position as illogical or irrational, and I am prepared to defend that. Yes, and that would include presenting my evidence for my position. Good. Let's see what you have. Enjoy
petrophysics and RAZD only Note: others can comment on Peanut Gallery -- for petrophysics vs RAZD debate -- ONLY once that is promoted. Edited by RAZD, : clrty Edited by RAZD, : db codes glitch with tid by our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
|
|||||||||||||||||||
RAZD Member (Idle past 1433 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
Hi again petrophysics1
Please forgive my late reply. My wife just got back from doing the consulting on a Marathon well in North Dakota for the last 46 days and just came back. I actually haven't seen her since late October due to my work and her's. I'll try and post here each day. No rush, enjoy yourself. I am in a similar situation, my wife cares for her elderly mother, and we have now bought a house (built in 1860 and in need of some renovations), started a business (consulting, one client so far), and need to get the squirrels out of the attic ... I'd rather have a slow reasoned response than a hurried ad hoc one. Enjoy. by our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
|
|||||||||||||||||||
RAZD Member (Idle past 1433 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
petrophysics and RAZD only Hi petrophysics1,
EVIDENCE LEVELS
These are the basic parameters that I have used in discussing this topic with others (including many atheists): do you agree with them? That wasn't about evidence levels but levels of confidence one can have in concepts about what is real and not real.
I come out of my house and notice a tire on my 2010 Jeep Wrangler Unlimited is flat. I need to know what you would do. I change the tire because I have 100% confidence it is flat. The flat tire is objective evidence not a concept per se, and it is a very common experience observed by many many people. In fact I have this problem frequently. Changing the tire doesn't answer the question of what caused the flat and what you need to do in order to drive your vehicle -- storing it and then putting it back on when you have another flat will not necessarily solve that problem.
If you collect a large number of people to find out what they observe and need to read their entire peer reviewed literature before you change the tire I need to know about that. It means you have a profound psychological problem or you are playing some debate game. Curiously, the levels of confidence do not specify peer reviewed articles and a search of all previous literature before formation - this is a red herring. I've just proposed a revision to this table in discussion with subbie on The persistent question of evidence (RAZD and subbie only):
The flat tire is the objective evidence at hand, and from this we can postulate several causes with level III confidence:
I change the tire because I have 100% confidence it is flat. I inflate the tire first to see if it is a rapid leak or slow. If the seal has been broken or a prankster has let the air out then this usually solves the problem. If leakage still occurs, but slowly enough to drive on, then I take it to a garage to test where and how it leaks, and this eliminates the other possibilities. If the leak is too fast to hold sufficient air then I change the tire, and take the flat tire to the garage for repair or replacement. My 12 year old car with aluminum rims has problem #3, and I periodically have to take it to the garage to have the rims sealed. This is based on knowledge of common experiences among friends, acquaintences and relations, education and information on the behavior of tires, rather mundane knowledge that does not require the application of the scientific method and the big guns of the scientific process, including peer reviewed articles. That process is only necessary to establish new knowledge. Concepts that are not based on common experience or that attempt to explain things in a new way.
It seems to me that unless a single person can make a valid objective empirical observation of the world science is impossible. Science is founded on the principle of verification and replication. Initial observations can be made by individuals, but they are not accepted until they have been tested and replicated. Cold Fusion comes to mind.
I am a petroleum geologist. I can show someone a world wide flood did not occur. It may take me weeks or months, but I will do it without quoting or referencing another single geologist whose work I did not check. It is based on things I have actually seen and worked on. It is not based on things I’ve read about. That's fine, however I don't think we need to do that here, perhaps if you want to debate a theist that believes there was a flood, it would be appropriate.
That would be a belief. Not a bad thing since we progress forward as a civilization based upon the work and experience of others. I do think we need to rely to some basic extent on the works of others to provide the foundation of knowledge on which to work. The more skeptical (but open minded) person will at least validate the information from a variety of sources, and attempt to find contrary results as well confirmatory results in the available sources, before forming their personal opinion/s. With such an approach, using objective empirical evidence and some testing to validate it, one can operate at a high level of confidence without have personally done all the experiments in the history of science leading up to the latest concept/s, such as on the age of the earth. Enjoy.
petrophysics and RAZD only Note that we have been asked not to participate in the Peanut Gallery for the "Evidence" Great Debate thread. That thread is for people who want to make comments on this debate. Edited by RAZD, : rev Edited by RAZD, : added last line by our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
|
|||||||||||||||||||
RAZD Member (Idle past 1433 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
petrophysics and RAZD only Hi petrophysics1, thanks.
I asked a simple question. If you come outside and see your tire is flat. Do you have 100% confidence that it is? Don't think about what my questions mean, just answer them. So RAZD are you 100% certain your tire is flat? I have high (level IV) confidence, based on past experience, that it appears to be temporarily low on air. The rest was an update of the confidence concept scale (adding a level) and my response to your other question ...
Message 8 I need to know what you would do. I change the tire because I have 100% confidence it is flat. ... and why changing the tire may not be necessary (even though it may solve the problem, because it may be unnecessary to spend that time and energy). Sometimes people jump to conclusions because their tea-cup is full.
Don't think about what my questions mean, just answer them. Play on. Enjoy.
petrophysics and RAZD only Note that we have been asked not to participate in the Peanut Gallery for the "Evidence" Great Debate thread. That thread is for people who want to make comments on this debate. Edited by RAZD, : banner by our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
|
|||||||||||||||||||
RAZD Member (Idle past 1433 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
petrophysics and RAZD only Hi petrophysics1,
Tell me something that happened to you in your past that you have 100% confidence in having occurred Curiously, I can't think of any experiences where I have 100% confidence, but I'd have to go with Descartes and Dubito ergo cogito ergo sum if I had to choose something. On the other hand Buddhists say all is illusion. Two of the assumptions we make in science is that we can perceive elements of reality by our senses, and that they are evidence of reality rather than an illusion.
P.S. You don’t where I’m going here, if you did we wouldn’t be having this debate. I don't need to know where you are going. I'm in the back seat, enjoying the ride, and I'm not even asking "are we there yet?" Enjoy.
petrophysics and RAZD only Note that we have been asked not to participate in the Peanut Gallery for the "Evidence" Great Debate thread. That thread is for people who want to make comments on this debate. Edited by RAZD, : No reason given. Edited by RAZD, : subt Edited by RAZD, : banner by our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
|
|
|
Do Nothing Button
Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved
Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024