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Author Topic:   Where did the matter and energy come from?
frako
Member (Idle past 305 days)
Posts: 2932
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010


Message 181 of 357 (604516)
02-12-2011 7:26 PM
Reply to: Message 180 by thewordofgod
02-12-2011 6:52 PM


Re: huh??
If men have to plan before they build, then how do you think the universe could be built without plans?
Well im not an expert on the subject but, after the big bang the first atoms presumably hydrogen where made 1 proton 1 neutron and one electron why well because if you add a proton its no longer hydrogen if you add a neutron its unstable and you just cant add an electron.
Now after that these atoms started to group together first by means of electrostatics then gravity took over and the pile got bigger and bigger and many such piles where made no need for a plan just using the natural properties of matter and when the piles where big enough they formed stars and those stars began to fuse some atoms together to make new atoms higher on the periodic table of elements no plan just natural properties of matter.
And those stars exploded ....... and the whole thing repeated itself many times over till one day in a galaxy you call home the milky way somewhere on the edge of that galaxy a new solar system was starting to form no plan it just did using the Natural properties of matter.
the sun was formed by the same principle as other stars, and so where the planets electrostatics brought a small pile of elements together then gravity brought more and with time a whole bunch of mass that we now call planets or the sun. No plan only natural properties of matter.
When the earth cooled down enough amino acids formed the first RNA molecule and after that natural selection took charge RNA and DNA molecules tend to duplicate themselves and their duplicates are often imperfect copies and that imperfection is what makes evolution work no plan just a natural thing. The molecule that had the better chance of duplicating itself made more molecules then the one that had a worse chance.
These molecules then began to protect themselves with walls around them giving them a better chance of duplicating more times then the molecules whiteout walls so cells where Bourne.
Cells evolved further cells "cooperating" ad a better chance of reproducing so the first multicellular organism formed ....... millions of years of evolution and extinction events that opened new niches finally gave rise to pre modern humans and trough the process of evolution smarter humans had a better chance of survival then drummer ones we evolved no plan just natural laws
What are the chances of all the elements being formed in the exact amounts needed on this earth to sustain life? How did the Hydrogen atom and Oxygen atom know how much water and air to make before there was any life on earth?
Well given that you can climb quite high on the Himalayas whiteout an oxygen tank the exact amounts are not needed to be so exact dont you think. and the planet is loosing a bit of its atmosphere every moment so the amounts have not been the same all the time
the O2 in the air was first produced by one of the first living things on earth that got its energy from removing iron from the primal oceans and releasing o2 in to the atmosphere. And we do not need exactly 21% o2 in our atmosphere to survive 17.5% is the minimum and at low pressures you can breathe 100% pure oxygen at normal or high pressures its dangerous.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 180 by thewordofgod, posted 02-12-2011 6:52 PM thewordofgod has not replied

Replies to this message:
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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 182 of 357 (604523)
02-12-2011 9:30 PM
Reply to: Message 180 by thewordofgod
02-12-2011 6:52 PM


Re: huh??
How did the Hydrogen atom and Oxygen atom know how much water and air to make before there was any life on earth?
There was no gaseous atmospheric oxygen before the existence of life on Earth. Atmospheric oxygen is the result of Earth's life, not a precondition for it.
How would atoms know how to adust their energy level, ions, electrons and photons and the rest of the inner parts without plans to do so?
This does not describe anything that happens in the physical universe.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 180 by thewordofgod, posted 02-12-2011 6:52 PM thewordofgod has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 183 of 357 (604525)
02-12-2011 9:54 PM
Reply to: Message 178 by thewordofgod
02-12-2011 6:33 PM


God is going to destroy everything soon so you don't have to be concerned about what I said. Go about your arrogant ways until you're burned up with hot molten lava.
Well, it's nice to have something to look forward to.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 178 by thewordofgod, posted 02-12-2011 6:33 PM thewordofgod has not replied

Replies to this message:
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bluescat48
Member (Idle past 4189 days)
Posts: 2347
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2007


Message 184 of 357 (604545)
02-13-2011 12:23 AM
Reply to: Message 183 by Dr Adequate
02-12-2011 9:54 PM


Evidently god has changed his plans on how he is going to destroy us. Now it's liquid rock, whatever happened to fire & brimstone(sulphur).

There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other WT Young, 2002
Who gave anyone the authority to call me an authority on anything. WT Young, 1969
Since Evolution is only ~90% correct it should be thrown out and replaced by Creation which has even a lower % of correctness. W T Young, 2008

This message is a reply to:
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NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 185 of 357 (604719)
02-14-2011 1:58 PM
Reply to: Message 181 by frako
02-12-2011 7:26 PM


Re: huh??
quote:
after the big bang the first atoms presumably hydrogen where made 1 proton 1 neutron and one electron
You believe the first atoms were deuterium? Why not plain old single proton, no neutron, hydrogen?
quote:
why well because if you add a proton its no longer hydrogen if you add a neutron its unstable and you just cant add an electron.
Are you arguing that the first atoms could not have 2 protons because the atoms would then be helium rather than hydrogen?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 181 by frako, posted 02-12-2011 7:26 PM frako has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 186 by frako, posted 02-14-2011 2:54 PM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied

  
frako
Member (Idle past 305 days)
Posts: 2932
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010


Message 186 of 357 (604724)
02-14-2011 2:54 PM
Reply to: Message 185 by NoNukes
02-14-2011 1:58 PM


Re: huh??
You believe the first atoms were deuterium? Why not plain old single proton, no neutron, hydrogen?
Lol srry forgot my chemistry i believe i started with the line "Well im not an expert on the subject but,"
Are you arguing that the first atoms could not have 2 protons because the atoms would then be helium rather than hydrogen?
Nope im arguing his silly notions that atoms know how much of each (protons neutrons electrons) they must have. I do believe the first atoms could also have been hydrogen atoms.

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John 10:10
Member (Idle past 2995 days)
Posts: 766
From: Mt Juliet / TN / USA
Joined: 02-01-2006


Message 187 of 357 (604839)
02-15-2011 12:35 PM
Reply to: Message 180 by thewordofgod
02-12-2011 6:52 PM


A "just right" universe!
In John Gribbin’s review of Brian Greene's book "The Hidden Reality" in the WSJ, the review states there are two possibilities for why we live in a "just right" universe with a "just right" gravity. Using suits as an analogy, "either the suit has been specifically tailored for the client — made to measure — or he has visited a large store with an array of suits in all possible sizes, choosing the one right for him off the peg."
The review goes on to say, "the best interpretation of the laws of physics as we understand them is that we live in an off-the-peg universe," yet gives no rational reasons why this is the best interpretation of the laws of physics!
I find this statement astounding and without scientific merit. Would the laws of physics somehow work differently in a "tailor-made universe" than they would in an similar "off-the-peg universe?" The only universe that we can truly come to know and understand with some scientific certainty is the one we live in which has many other scientific constants that seem to be tailor-made just for man's existence. To favor a belief in a vast array of universes in order to come up with a tailor-made universe ignores the obvious better interpretation that only a divine Tailor could make such a tailor-made universe as we live in.
But as you said, science rejects this conclusion, as do most at this forum.
Blessings to those who know our Divine Tailor and to those who do not.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 180 by thewordofgod, posted 02-12-2011 6:52 PM thewordofgod has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 188 by jar, posted 02-15-2011 12:59 PM John 10:10 has replied
 Message 189 by Straggler, posted 02-15-2011 1:00 PM John 10:10 has not replied
 Message 190 by Taq, posted 02-15-2011 1:05 PM John 10:10 has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 188 of 357 (604840)
02-15-2011 12:59 PM
Reply to: Message 187 by John 10:10
02-15-2011 12:35 PM


A "just right" universe! is not this universe.
John 10:10 writes:
In John Gribbin’s review of Brian Greene's book "The Hidden Reality" in the WSJ, the review states there are two possibilities for why we live in a "just right" universe with a "just right" gravity. Using suits as an analogy, "either the suit has been specifically tailored for the client — made to measure — or he has visited a large store with an array of suits in all possible sizes, choosing the one right for him off the peg."
The review goes on to say, "the best interpretation of the laws of physics as we understand them is that we live in an off-the-peg universe," yet gives no rational reasons why this is the best interpretation of the laws of physics!
I find this statement astounding and without scientific merit. Would the laws of physics somehow work differently in a "tailor-made universe" than they would in an similar "off-the-peg universe?" The only universe that we can truly come to know and understand with some scientific certainty is the one we live in which has many other scientific constants that seem to be tailor-made just for man's existence. To favor a belief in a vast array of universes in order to come up with a tailor-made universe ignores the obvious better interpretation that only a divine Tailor could make such a tailor-made universe as we live in.
But as you said, science rejects this conclusion, as do most at this forum.
Blessings to those who know our Divine Tailor and to those who do not.
Yet the more we look the less we find that is "just right".
Perhaps you can point to examples of things that are "just right" for humans and we can look and see if you are correct.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 187 by John 10:10, posted 02-15-2011 12:35 PM John 10:10 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 192 by John 10:10, posted 02-15-2011 1:34 PM jar has replied
 Message 198 by John 10:10, posted 02-15-2011 7:39 PM jar has replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 189 of 357 (604841)
02-15-2011 1:00 PM
Reply to: Message 187 by John 10:10
02-15-2011 12:35 PM


Re: A "just right" universe!
If the universe is so tailor made for life why is the overwhelmingly vast majority of the universe so inhospitable to life?
And even this little corner of life that we know of (i.e. Earth) is one cosmic catastrophe away from oblivion.
If I was omnipotent I would have done a much better job........

This message is a reply to:
 Message 187 by John 10:10, posted 02-15-2011 12:35 PM John 10:10 has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9972
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.5


Message 190 of 357 (604842)
02-15-2011 1:05 PM
Reply to: Message 187 by John 10:10
02-15-2011 12:35 PM


Re: A "just right" universe!
The only universe that we can truly come to know and understand with some scientific certainty is the one we live in which has many other scientific constants that seem to be tailor-made just for man's existence.
This may not always be true. It is very possible that we may indeed learn how universes are made in the future.
The point is that an off the peg suit will seem to be tailor made if you ignore all of the other suits in the store.
To favor a belief in a vast array of universes in order to come up with a tailor-made universe ignores the obvious better interpretation that only a divine Tailor could make such a tailor-made universe as we live in.
Why is it a better interpretation?
But as you said, science rejects this conclusion, as do most at this forum.
It's not really a matter of rejecting the conclusion outright. Rather, if things come about by magical poofing through the actions of an undetectable and whimsical supernatural deity then there is no real reason to be doing science in the first place. If we are to research how universes come about in a scientific manner we have to assume that there is a naturalistic mechanism of some sort to find, otherwise what is the point of doing the research? So it is an assumption required by the methodology but not necessarily a philosophical requirement.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 187 by John 10:10, posted 02-15-2011 12:35 PM John 10:10 has not replied

Replies to this message:
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Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 191 of 357 (604844)
02-15-2011 1:09 PM
Reply to: Message 190 by Taq
02-15-2011 1:05 PM


Re: A "just right" universe!
Taq writes:
So it is an assumption required by the methodology but not necessarily a philosophical requirement.
We also have no reason to give the supernatural hypothesis any credence at all given it's abysmal track record of failure.

This message is a reply to:
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John 10:10
Member (Idle past 2995 days)
Posts: 766
From: Mt Juliet / TN / USA
Joined: 02-01-2006


Message 192 of 357 (604845)
02-15-2011 1:34 PM
Reply to: Message 188 by jar
02-15-2011 12:59 PM


A "just right" universe! is this universe!
My reply was to a Believer in our Divine Tailor.
To those who choose not to believe,
Rom 1:20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 188 by jar, posted 02-15-2011 12:59 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 193 by jar, posted 02-15-2011 1:38 PM John 10:10 has not replied
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 Message 197 by Coragyps, posted 02-15-2011 2:25 PM John 10:10 has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 193 of 357 (604846)
02-15-2011 1:38 PM
Reply to: Message 192 by John 10:10
02-15-2011 1:34 PM


Re: A "just right" universe! is this universe!
John 10:10 writes:
My reply was to a Believer in our Divine Tailor.
To those who choose not to believe,
Rom 1:20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.
Which is of course, just word salad and not evidence of much at all. It is also, of course, just another example of quotemining the Bible and taking things out of context, of misrepresentation.
And of course, it does not address the issue I raised:
quote:
Yet the more we look the less we find that is "just right".
Perhaps you can point to examples of things that are "just right" for humans and we can look and see if you are correct.
So again I ask, can you point to examples of things that are "just right" for humans so that we can test your assertions?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 192 by John 10:10, posted 02-15-2011 1:34 PM John 10:10 has not replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 194 of 357 (604847)
02-15-2011 1:39 PM
Reply to: Message 192 by John 10:10
02-15-2011 1:34 PM


Re: A "just right" universe! is this universe!
J10 writes:
His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.
On the contrary - If there is a divine creator of the universe he has given us ample "excuse" to doubt "his" involvement.
Universe Creator Class End of Term Assessment: Must try harder.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 192 by John 10:10, posted 02-15-2011 1:34 PM John 10:10 has not replied

Replies to this message:
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Taq
Member
Posts: 9972
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.5


Message 195 of 357 (604848)
02-15-2011 1:57 PM
Reply to: Message 192 by John 10:10
02-15-2011 1:34 PM


Re: A "just right" universe! is this universe!
To those who choose not to believe, . . .
What about those of us who think this should be a matter of evidence and not belief?

This message is a reply to:
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