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Author Topic:   God's Place In Evolution
jar
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 16 of 190 (604754)
02-14-2011 5:25 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by slevesque
02-14-2011 5:17 PM


Re: Speaking as one Christian to another.
slevesque writes:
Okok, well I not too well versed in that subject, but I have to say that this all seems to be more of an hypothesis then an established fact., which seems to be intricately connected to the documentary hypothesis.
Which, in my humble opinion, seems to be an outdated hypothesis for the authorship of the Pentateuch. But that's probably another subject
Well, you can always just look at the gods in the two fables themselves to see the evolution of the god description. The two different gods are completely unlike, one competent and sure but aloof and apart, the other fumbling, unsure, fearful but personal, intimate.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by slevesque, posted 02-14-2011 5:17 PM slevesque has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by slevesque, posted 02-14-2011 5:31 PM jar has replied

  
slevesque
Member (Idle past 4662 days)
Posts: 1456
Joined: 05-14-2009


(1)
Message 17 of 190 (604755)
02-14-2011 5:27 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by Taq
02-14-2011 5:16 PM


The difference being that we can detect the percentage of oxygen in a gaseous atmosphere. Even more, we can create oxygen free atmospheres and see if that person does survive.
What are the analogous supernatural experiments that we can do?
This all has nothing to do with the fact that the reasoning is a fallacy or not. It is confounding belief in something with the actual thing. Just because something is essential to life, does not mean belief in said thing is also essential.
Even with all the scientific experiments in the world, someone may not believe in oxygen. It does not make it any less essential for that person.
Idem for the God issue. If goldrush says ''God is essential for human existence'', even if this is unfounded, replying ''I don't believe in God and I exist just fine'' is clearly a fallacious rebuttal.

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Jon
Inactive Member


Message 18 of 190 (604756)
02-14-2011 5:28 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by Taq
02-14-2011 5:16 PM


What are the analogous supernatural experiments that we can do?
Frako's claim was that he does just fine without believing in God; this is a fallacious counter argument to the claim that God is fundamental to life.
Experimentation that might prove the conclusion true does not validate an argument.
Jon

Check out No webpage found at provided URL: Apollo's Temple!
Ignorance is temporary; you should be able to overcome it. - nwr

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slevesque
Member (Idle past 4662 days)
Posts: 1456
Joined: 05-14-2009


Message 19 of 190 (604757)
02-14-2011 5:31 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by jar
02-14-2011 5:25 PM


Re: Speaking as one Christian to another.
Well, you can always just look at the gods in the two fables themselves to see the evolution of the god description. The two different gods are completely unlike, one competent and sure but aloof and apart, the other fumbling, unsure, fearful but personal, intimate.
I think you are seeing way more into this then what the texts indicate.
If I remember correctly supposedly the creation account is made in a known jewish litterary style, where it at first looks at the general aspect of creation, then 'zooms in' on the creation of man. (yes, I know this is an unfounded assertion)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by jar, posted 02-14-2011 5:25 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by jar, posted 02-14-2011 5:40 PM slevesque has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 20 of 190 (604759)
02-14-2011 5:40 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by slevesque
02-14-2011 5:31 PM


Re: Speaking as one Christian to another.
slevesque writes:
Well, you can always just look at the gods in the two fables themselves to see the evolution of the god description. The two different gods are completely unlike, one competent and sure but aloof and apart, the other fumbling, unsure, fearful but personal, intimate.
I think you are seeing way more into this then what the texts indicate.
If I remember correctly supposedly the creation account is made in a known jewish litterary style, where it at first looks at the general aspect of creation, then 'zooms in' on the creation of man. (yes, I know this is an unfounded assertion)
Totally unfounded and not supported at all by the text.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by slevesque, posted 02-14-2011 5:31 PM slevesque has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by slevesque, posted 02-14-2011 5:49 PM jar has seen this message but not replied

  
slevesque
Member (Idle past 4662 days)
Posts: 1456
Joined: 05-14-2009


Message 21 of 190 (604762)
02-14-2011 5:49 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by jar
02-14-2011 5:40 PM


Re: Speaking as one Christian to another.
I think there an easy way to test if the writing of Gen1 and Gen2-3 is seperated by time. There should be a notable language/syntax differences between the two.
AbE I you want to continue on this issue, start a new thread.
Edited by slevesque, : No reason given.

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goldrush
Member (Idle past 4797 days)
Posts: 61
Joined: 02-08-2011


Message 22 of 190 (604781)
02-14-2011 9:31 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by Jon
02-14-2011 4:27 PM


Jon, if you want to judge my stating a point or position, and then not bothering with arguing my point further as a "duck and run" move then that's your call. Honestly, once I make a point, I don't feel the need to argue it to death or make a rebuttal to every challenge thrown out, (especially when these challenges go off on tangents all around my point). I post what I think and I basically allow others to do the same.
What do I have to offer? Probably nothing to the people who are already committed to the idea that a creator does not/cannot exist (or is foolish or wrong). But for all others, it is my
hope that I will be able to share some points that will get them to step back and think about the real reasons they are for or against a creator. It is not my goal to present
perfect arguments that convince everyone, but to present ideas that raise questions in the
way we view things. Will I sound like an idiot from time to time? Yes, lol. But I feel we all
say silly things sometimes, which brings me back to my point. I feel the real reasons for
our positions on whether are not there is a creator goes beyond the purely rational or intellectual sphere. I believe it has a lot to do with the way we have come to view world conditions (especially the human condition) and the way these views have impacted us emotionally- positively or
negatively.
Edited by goldrush, : No reason given.
Edited by goldrush, : No reason given.
Edited by goldrush, : No reason given.
Edited by goldrush, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by Jon, posted 02-14-2011 4:27 PM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
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 Message 36 by Jon, posted 02-15-2011 8:36 AM goldrush has replied
 Message 39 by Taq, posted 02-15-2011 11:28 AM goldrush has replied

  
goldrush
Member (Idle past 4797 days)
Posts: 61
Joined: 02-08-2011


Message 23 of 190 (604786)
02-14-2011 10:40 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by frako
02-14-2011 4:03 PM


[qs=frako]
Animals are more or less sure of things (instinct).
not true releasing a captive animal that had no contact with its own species in the wild is fatal to the animal because it does not know how to survive there what happened to the instinct ?????
You have a point here. But something similar is also true for isolated big- brained humans, as I pointed out in the outset. We are endowed with certain capacities, but the way we are nurtured (our environment, our training) has much to do with what we become and are capable of.
Really if evolution and materialistic forces truly created man from beast, then should there even be any mention of God ever in history?
You keep talking about your one god what abbout the other 100 000 gods out there those where imagined right ???
I did not elaborate in my original post, but my reference to one God comes from the fact that a comparison of various religions reveals striking similarities in their specific themes, "fables" and "legends". It's basically the same story different characters (and sometimes additional ones). Many religions feature accounts about a golden age/age of perfection, a fall from perfection, and an interesting one is the account of the ancient flood "legend" found in various forms in cultures all over the world. The fact that many cultures all over the world contain an ancient flood legend supports the fact that humanity started in one place, with one God, and one religion, and spread. When people spread, details became added and embellished.
God is fundamental to humanity's existence.
Well i dont believe in god and most of my friends dont and we still havent died been struck by lightning ....... so my guess is THEY are not so fundamental
I was actually referring to the beginning of the human existence. I was not intending to go anywhere further than that in my original post.

This message is a reply to:
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goldrush
Member (Idle past 4797 days)
Posts: 61
Joined: 02-08-2011


Message 24 of 190 (604788)
02-14-2011 10:55 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by Blue Jay
02-14-2011 9:54 AM


It seems to me, that your reasoning is that knowlege and language goes from simple to complex, but this is not necessarily true. The Hebrew language is older and more specific and complex than English. So according to your theory, English should have come before Hebrew, but this is not the case.
Also, who is the common ancestor between man and apes? If he is only a theory, what is the evidence for him? All creatures differ a little from their parents, but what hard evidence do we have that one species or kind became another? What evidence do we have that over time mutations create new species altogether?
Edited by goldrush, : No reason given.
Edited by goldrush, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by Blue Jay, posted 02-14-2011 9:54 AM Blue Jay has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by Coyote, posted 02-14-2011 10:59 PM goldrush has replied
 Message 29 by AZPaul3, posted 02-14-2011 11:25 PM goldrush has not replied
 Message 32 by Dr Adequate, posted 02-14-2011 11:45 PM goldrush has not replied
 Message 35 by bluescat48, posted 02-15-2011 12:33 AM goldrush has not replied
 Message 37 by Jon, posted 02-15-2011 8:47 AM goldrush has not replied
 Message 38 by Blue Jay, posted 02-15-2011 9:04 AM goldrush has not replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2128 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 25 of 190 (604789)
02-14-2011 10:59 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by goldrush
02-14-2011 10:55 PM


Speciation
All creatures differs little from their parents, but what hard evidence do we have that one species or kind became another?
There is a lot of evidence for speciation, both from modern studies and studies of the past.
Are you suggesting that speciation didn't happen?
And if so, what is the basis for your suggestion?

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by goldrush, posted 02-14-2011 10:55 PM goldrush has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by goldrush, posted 02-14-2011 11:01 PM Coyote has replied

  
goldrush
Member (Idle past 4797 days)
Posts: 61
Joined: 02-08-2011


Message 26 of 190 (604790)
02-14-2011 11:01 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by Coyote
02-14-2011 10:59 PM


Re: Speciation
No, I'm simply asking the person claiming speciation to explain it and present evidence.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by Coyote, posted 02-14-2011 10:59 PM Coyote has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by Coyote, posted 02-14-2011 11:23 PM goldrush has replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2128 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 27 of 190 (604791)
02-14-2011 11:23 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by goldrush
02-14-2011 11:01 PM


Re: Speciation
goldrush writes:
No, I'm simply asking the person claiming speciation to explain it and present evidence.
There is evidence all through the scientific literature.
Whole floors of major libraries are devoted to peer-reviewed journals filled with evidence for evolution and speciation.
Seems to me that anyone disputing that evidence should bring some pretty convinving evidence of their own. Their position is not mainstream. Fact is, it's pretty fringe.
And your evidence is...?

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by goldrush, posted 02-14-2011 11:01 PM goldrush has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by goldrush, posted 02-14-2011 11:27 PM Coyote has replied

  
goldrush
Member (Idle past 4797 days)
Posts: 61
Joined: 02-08-2011


Message 28 of 190 (604792)
02-14-2011 11:25 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by Dr Adequate
02-14-2011 7:03 AM


[qs=Dr Adequate][qs]
Obviously, God gave the first man language, spoke to him, and instructed him.
Aren't you a Christian? Only the Bible presents a very different picture --- God brings the animals before Adam, who names them (Genesis 2:20). God didn't need to tell Adam what they were called, because Adam had the capacity to make up names for them, just as we have the capacity to invent the word "television", and deaf-and-dumb people had the capacity to invent sign language. Even the author of Genesis, then, doesn't seem to have swallowed your thesis.
No, mythesis actually does not dispute the Genesis account. Evidently, according to the account, God spoke to Adam before having him name the animals. He gave him commands. Hence language came from God to begin with. So Adam's naming the animals was an extension of the language he received from God from the time he was created by God.
Edited by goldrush, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by Dr Adequate, posted 02-14-2011 7:03 AM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
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AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8536
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.0


Message 29 of 190 (604793)
02-14-2011 11:25 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by goldrush
02-14-2011 10:55 PM


Also, who is the common ancestor between man and apes? If he is only a theory, what is the evidence for him?
How many intermediaries need be found between Ardipithecus and Homo before you people get the point that a chain exists?
Now, I'm not saying you have to accept, but how the hell can you not even know the answer to your own question? It really doesn't take much intellect to do the research.
The chain of evidence is out there for you to see. All of it!
Go look. It will not poison your brain. Well, not by much. With lasting effect. For very long. Initially.

This message is a reply to:
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goldrush
Member (Idle past 4797 days)
Posts: 61
Joined: 02-08-2011


Message 30 of 190 (604794)
02-14-2011 11:27 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by Coyote
02-14-2011 11:23 PM


Re: Speciation
Explain to me please how I disputed anything by merely asking a question. If evidence is as abundant as you say, surely you shouldn't have a problem presenting at least one piece.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by Coyote, posted 02-14-2011 11:23 PM Coyote has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by Coyote, posted 02-14-2011 11:37 PM goldrush has not replied

  
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