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Author Topic:   Thoughts on the Creator Conclusion
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 136 of 187 (604962)
02-16-2011 12:31 PM
Reply to: Message 97 by crashfrog
02-10-2011 1:45 PM


Re: Tree
Hi crash,
crashfrog writes:
Like all other genomic information it evolved by natural selection and random mutation over time.
Do you have any documented evidence that information can be produced outside of an intelligent mind producing it?
Would you agree with the following statements from the National Human Genome Research Institute found Here?
If not, why not?
What is DNA?
We all know that elephants only give birth to little elephants, giraffes to giraffes, dogs to dogs and so on for every type of living creature. But why is this so?
The answer lies in a molecule called deoxyribonucleic acid (DNA), which contains the biological instructions that make each species unique. DNA, along with the instructions it contains, is passed from adult organisms to their offspring during reproduction.
What does DNA do?
DNA contains the instructions needed for an organism to develop, survive and reproduce. To carry out these functions, DNA sequences must be converted into messages that can be used to produce proteins, which are the complex molecules that do most of the work in our bodies.
Information
DefinitionBasic data communication theory that applies to the technical processes of encoding a signal for transmission, and provides a statistical description of the message produced by the code. It defines information as choice or entropy and treats the 'meaning' of a message (in the human sense) as irrelevant. Proposed together by the US mathematicians Claude Shannon (1916-2001) and Warren Weaver (1894-1978) in 1949, it focuses on how to transmit data most efficiently and economically, and to detect errors in its transmission and reception.
Source
Would you agree that the information stored in the DNA can do nothing as long as it remains in the DNA?
Would you agree that the information stored in the DNA must be transfered to the ribosomes for a protein to be produced?
Would you agree that the ribosome must have specific information to produce a specific protein?
Speaking about the main functions of ribosomes, they play the role of assembling amino acids to form specific proteins, which in turn are essential for carrying out the cell's activities. As we all have a fair idea regarding production of proteins, the deoxyribonucleic acid (DNA) first produces RNA (messenger RNA or mRNA) by the process of DNA transcription, after which genetic message from the mRNA is translated into proteins during DNA translation.
To be more precise about protein synthesis by ribosomes, the sequence for assembling amino acids for protein synthesis are specified in the mRNA. The mRNA synthesized in the nucleus is then transported to the cytoplasm for further continuation of protein synthesis. In the cytoplasm, the two subunits of ribosomes bind around the mRNA polymers and synthesize proteins with the help of transfer RNA (tRNA), as per the genetic code. This whole process of protein synthesis is also referred to as central dogma.
Source
If you do not agree with the information cited please explain why.
Now back to my question.
The information in the DNA is required to reproduce the cell.
The cell can not be reproduced without the information stored in the DNA.
If the cell cannot be reproduced without the information it could not begin to exist without the information.
Where did the original information come from?
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 97 by crashfrog, posted 02-10-2011 1:45 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 149 by crashfrog, posted 02-16-2011 3:59 PM ICANT has not replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 137 of 187 (604969)
02-16-2011 12:54 PM
Reply to: Message 135 by Blue Jay
02-16-2011 12:09 PM


Re: Tree
Hi jay,
Bluejay writes:
However, let's not lose sight of the main point by chasing tangents: the point is that plant growth is highly flexible, and is not rigidly encoded by the DNA.
So why don't all trees reproduce the same way?
Why do some reproduce by individual seed?
I read the article.
As I understand it the new growth comes from the division of a cell which could only take place by the information contained in the original cells's DNA. That is unless a mutation is required to produce the new growth. But with the group of trees you produced the picture of that would be an auful lot of the exact same mutations taking place.
I do know that some weird things can be done in plants. I have a tree that produces grapefruit, oranges, and tangarines. This is accomplished by grafting limbs from two trees into one trunk.
The limbs can produce the fruit that they would if left on the original trunk.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 135 by Blue Jay, posted 02-16-2011 12:09 PM Blue Jay has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 140 by Blue Jay, posted 02-16-2011 1:52 PM ICANT has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 138 of 187 (604983)
02-16-2011 1:24 PM
Reply to: Message 82 by crashfrog
02-10-2011 12:09 PM


Re: Tree
Hi crash,
crashfrog writes:
NA is not "self-replicating", the replication complex of DNA involves the action of at least a dozen different proteins and a substantial amount of ddNTP.
Are you saying that the DNA of a cell does not contain the information necessary to construct a cell identical to the original cell?
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by crashfrog, posted 02-10-2011 12:09 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 148 by crashfrog, posted 02-16-2011 3:55 PM ICANT has not replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 139 of 187 (604987)
02-16-2011 1:35 PM
Reply to: Message 96 by crashfrog
02-10-2011 1:44 PM


Re: Tree
Hi crash,
crashfrog writes:
Show me a single blueprint for a foundation that specifies step-by-step instructions on how to operate the excavator to dig the hole, how to mix and pour the concrete, how to use a chop saw to cut lengths of rebar.
Why would the blueprint need to specify step-by-step intruction on how to operate equiptment or mix concrete?
The general contractor is responsible for delivering those services. He has taken courses, passed a test to get his contractors license and hires people that know how to do those things.
crashfrog writes:
As usual you've allowed yourself to be the person in this discussion who knows the least about what we're talking about.
Telling someone who has drawn blueprints and had them approved by building departments in more than one country and then constructed the buildings doesn't know what he is talking about will get you no points with me.
Your not understanding of the job of the contractor is appalling.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 96 by crashfrog, posted 02-10-2011 1:44 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 147 by crashfrog, posted 02-16-2011 3:53 PM ICANT has not replied

  
Blue Jay
Member (Idle past 2698 days)
Posts: 2843
From: You couldn't pronounce it with your mouthparts
Joined: 02-04-2008


Message 140 of 187 (604996)
02-16-2011 1:52 PM
Reply to: Message 137 by ICANT
02-16-2011 12:54 PM


Re: Tree
Hi, ICANT.
ICANT writes:
So why don't all trees reproduce the same way?
Why don't all builders use nail guns or red bricks?
Different tree species have different genomes. Different genomes means different tools and materials. Reproductive systems are part of these tools and materials that might differ between species.
-----
ICANT writes:
As I understand it the new growth comes from the division of a cell which could only take place by the information contained in the original cells's DNA.
I'm not clear on what you're saying here.
A meristem is an entire cluster of undifferentiated cells that are all dividing simultaneously. If there are four meristematic cells in the cluster, and a mutation happens while one of them is dividing, it is only going to be found in one of the four daughter cells (which means one out of eight total cells, if you count the parent cells).
So, while mutations will happen during division, no particular mutation will become fixed in all the cells of a single trunk. So, the trunk shouldn't differ substantially from other trunks in terms of the overall or "average" genome of its constituent cells.
But, I don't know what you mean by "could only take place by the information contained in the original cells's DNA."

-Bluejay (a.k.a. Mantis, Thylacosmilus)
Darwin loves you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 137 by ICANT, posted 02-16-2011 12:54 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 142 by ICANT, posted 02-16-2011 2:31 PM Blue Jay has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 141 of 187 (605010)
02-16-2011 2:25 PM
Reply to: Message 99 by Taq
02-10-2011 1:57 PM


Re: Tree
Hi Taq,
Taq writes:
If you gave a blueprint to someone who had never done any construction whatsoever would they be able to build the house to code based on the blueprint alone? Last I checked, blueprints did not include instructions on how to sweat a joint.
No.
A blueprint is not a DIY set of instructions. I could produce one but it would then be a book.
A blueprint is information containing a set of instructions specifying what is to be built. In that information it specifies the dimensions of what is to be built. It specifies the material to be used. It specifies the specification each material is to meet as well as the density of the ground under the footer.
A licensed contracator is required to get the permit from the building department. That contractor is responsible to build the structure exactly according to the specifications contained in the blueprint. If he does not he can be held liable for all costs to bring the structure into compliance with the approved blueprint.
The general contractor is responsible for the electrical contractor that does the electrical work. Therefore he must have a contract with said contractor holding said sub-contractor responsible to install all electrical equiptment according to the building code specified in the blueprint.
The general contractor is responsible for the plumbing contractor that does the plumbing work. Therefore must have a contract with said contractor holding said sub-contractor responsible to install all plumbing equiptment according to the building code specified in the blueprint.
In fact the general contractor is responsible for all sub-contractors that work in the production of the structure, that they perform their work in accordance with the building code specified in the blueprint.
Taq writes:
Blueprints are an abstract representation of what is to be built. DNA is not abstract. It is the building material itself.
To you it may be an abstract representation of what is to be built.
To me it is a detailed set of instructions of what is to be built and exactly how it is to be built. It details exactly what material is to be used and what specifications that material is to meet.
The building code specifed in the blueprint specifies how each opperation is to be performed.
Taq writes:
Blueprints are an abstract representation of what is to be built. DNA is not abstract. It is the building material itself.
Are you saying that DNA does not contain information?
Are you saying specific information is not required to build a specific protein?
Are you saying that specific information does not have to be delivered to the ribosome to produce that specific protein?
Lets see we have information in the DNA.
That information is assembled in the form of mRNA and delivered to the ribosomes being translated by the tRNA so the ribosomes can produce the specified protein. Source
Blueprint stored information for a specific structure delivered to contractor.
The contractor delivers that information to his purchasing agent.
The purchasing agent procures sub-contractors to produce the product.
The contractor provides the information needed by each sub-contractor to do their specific job.
Any information that needs clarification can always be obtained by checking with the producer of the blueprint.
Seems like a pretty similar process to me.
Stored information delivered to workers who produces finish product.
The same process is used for both finished products.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 99 by Taq, posted 02-10-2011 1:57 PM Taq has not replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 142 of 187 (605014)
02-16-2011 2:31 PM
Reply to: Message 140 by Blue Jay
02-16-2011 1:52 PM


Re: Tree
Hi jay,
Bluejay writes:
But, I don't know what you mean by "could only take place by the information contained in the original cells's DNA."
How does a cell divide?
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 140 by Blue Jay, posted 02-16-2011 1:52 PM Blue Jay has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 151 by Blue Jay, posted 02-17-2011 12:04 AM ICANT has not replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 143 of 187 (605017)
02-16-2011 2:40 PM
Reply to: Message 100 by Taq
02-10-2011 2:01 PM


Re: Tree
Hi Taq,
Taq writes:
That is what scientists are researching right now.
That is great.
But why is all discussion as if it was a fact that it was acquired over time by natural selection and mutations?
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 100 by Taq, posted 02-10-2011 2:01 PM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 145 by Taq, posted 02-16-2011 3:05 PM ICANT has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 144 of 187 (605025)
02-16-2011 3:05 PM
Reply to: Message 102 by Blue Jay
02-10-2011 2:15 PM


Re: Tree
Hi jay,
Bluejay writes:
An example of instructions:
Lay the board on the ground.
With a pen, make a mark 1 inch from the end of the board and 1 inch from the edge
Place the board against the other board such that the end is flush with the face of the other board.
Place the pointy end of a nail against this pen mark and hold the nail firmly between the thumb and forefinger.
With a hammer in the other hand, and while still holding the nail between thumb and forefinger, strike the head of the nail several times, until the pointy end is buried solidly into the wood.
Let go of the nail and continue to strike the nail with the hammer until the nail is buried to its head in the wood.
Do blueprints contain things like this? No, no they don't.
The information you asked for is the reason a General Contractor is required to get the building permit.
The government wants to know the people doing the work is compentent to do the work required to produce the structure according to the blueprints they have approved.
No but they do contain such information that tells you what the compaction density of the ground is to be under the foundation that is placed so many feet from each property line. As well as how wide and how deep the footer is to be. Including how many steel rods of what size is to be placed in the footer as well as any and all verticles required and the place of their placement. It also specifies the psi of the concrete mixture to be used to pour the footer.
All this information and instructions are contained in one little cross section of the footer and its legend.
Bluejay writes:
DNA produces proteins,
I thought ribosomes produced proteins, according to the information transcribed by the tRNA that was delivered by the mRNA received from the RNA that was produced by the DNA.
I also thought mutations was caused by a mistranslation of that information by the tRNA. Source
Bluejay writes:
You've let the longstanding "blueprint" analogy for DNA lead you to make erroneous conclusions about how DNA functions.
So explain how my two thought above are wrong.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 102 by Blue Jay, posted 02-10-2011 2:15 PM Blue Jay has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 152 by Blue Jay, posted 02-17-2011 12:22 AM ICANT has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9973
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.7


Message 145 of 187 (605026)
02-16-2011 3:05 PM
Reply to: Message 143 by ICANT
02-16-2011 2:40 PM


Re: Tree
But why is all discussion as if it was a fact that it was acquired over time by natural selection and mutations?
This may very well be a case of "lost in translation". The subtleties of science-talk are not always that obvious to the layperson. Given the success of the theory of evolution it is the best choice for the foundation of their work. It is assumed that there is an evolutionary pathway, and their research is trying to discover this pathway. Evolution is not assumed as a "fact" [i]of absolute truth, but it is assumed as a fact for the purposes of the research.
To use an analogy, meteorologists assume that every cloud is the product of condensed water vapor. When they state that a specific cloud is made up of water vapor it is not because they have sent a probe into each and every cloud to make sure that it is water vapor and not magical cotton candy. On top of that, if their assumption of condensed water vapor was wrong then the mountains of previous research within meteorology should have caught it by now, and it hasn't.
So to boil it down, scientists are assuming that the last 150 years of solid scientific discovery is correct.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 143 by ICANT, posted 02-16-2011 2:40 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 146 by ICANT, posted 02-16-2011 3:46 PM Taq has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 146 of 187 (605035)
02-16-2011 3:46 PM
Reply to: Message 145 by Taq
02-16-2011 3:05 PM


Re: Tree
Hi Taq,
Taq writes:
So to boil it down, scientists are assuming that the last 150 years of solid scientific discovery is correct.
Which is based upon their assumptions.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 145 by Taq, posted 02-16-2011 3:05 PM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 150 by Taq, posted 02-16-2011 4:34 PM ICANT has not replied
 Message 153 by Taq, posted 02-17-2011 12:25 AM ICANT has not replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 147 of 187 (605037)
02-16-2011 3:53 PM
Reply to: Message 139 by ICANT
02-16-2011 1:35 PM


Re: Tree
Why would the blueprint need to specify step-by-step intruction on how to operate equiptment or mix concrete?
It wouldn't, because blueprints aren't instructions for how to build houses.
A document that was the instructions for how to build a house would surely have instructions for operating the tools and machines necessary to build a house because using those tools and machines in certain ways (and not certain other ways) are steps in building a house.
That's why we all know that blueprints aren't "instructions for building a house." The instructions for building a house are located in the textbooks and training manuals that builders had in construction school.
Your not understanding of the job of the contractor is appalling.
You trying to get us to believe that you have ever drafted a blueprint when it's clear you don't even know what they are is what is appalling. Are you always this bad a liar? Typically people do some research into a field before they try to feign qualification in it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 139 by ICANT, posted 02-16-2011 1:35 PM ICANT has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 155 by keridel, posted 02-17-2011 8:45 PM crashfrog has not replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 148 of 187 (605038)
02-16-2011 3:55 PM
Reply to: Message 138 by ICANT
02-16-2011 1:24 PM


Re: Tree
Are you saying that the DNA of a cell does not contain the information necessary to construct a cell identical to the original cell?
Yes. The DNA of a cell contains information necessary to construct proteins.
All DNA encodes is the primary structure of proteins, and a small amount of regulatory information necessary for expression of proteins.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 138 by ICANT, posted 02-16-2011 1:24 PM ICANT has not replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 149 of 187 (605039)
02-16-2011 3:59 PM
Reply to: Message 136 by ICANT
02-16-2011 12:31 PM


Re: Tree
Do you have any documented evidence that information can be produced outside of an intelligent mind producing it?
Yes, and it's been amply provided to you in this and other threads, awaiting your response. Documented evidence isn't on topic in a "faith and belief" forum.
Would you agree with the following statements from the National Human Genome Research Institute found Here?
Sure, for the most part, but understand that they're oversimplifying things for people like you who know absolutely nothing about DNA.
Would you agree that the information stored in the DNA must be transfered to the ribosomes for a protein to be produced?
Sure. mRNA is the molecule that acts as an intermediate between the information in DNA and the ribosome.
Would you agree that the ribosome must have specific information to produce a specific protein?
The ribosome needs mRNA that is complimentary to the protein's sequence in order to produce it.
Where did the original information come from?
Natural selection and random mutation, which is the source of all information in the DNA of all living things.
Seems like I already told you that. Is there a reason you're not paying attention?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 136 by ICANT, posted 02-16-2011 12:31 PM ICANT has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9973
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.7


Message 150 of 187 (605051)
02-16-2011 4:34 PM
Reply to: Message 146 by ICANT
02-16-2011 3:46 PM


Re: Tree
Which is based upon their assumptions.
They are assuming that there is an evolutionary pathway to discover given the success of the theory over the last 150 years.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 146 by ICANT, posted 02-16-2011 3:46 PM ICANT has not replied

  
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