Thoughts on the Creator Conclusion

Hi, Goldrush. This is probably because, in many cases, the answers to "how" questions make the answers to "why" questions obvious.For instance, let's ask, "How did life come to exist?"And, let's say the answer is, "Through the spontaneous formation of self-replicating molecules."Then, we also have the answer to the question, "Why does life exist?" which is, "Because some self-replicating molecules spontaneously formed in the past."You want the answers to "why" questions to be about the "motive" or "purpose" behind the process, because you believe everything has a grand purpose or point of existence; but, for processes that don't have a guiding intelligence or sentience behind them, there is no "motive" or "purpose"; so, the answer to the "why" question is just, "because the thing that answers the 'how' question happened."

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-Bluejay (a.k.a. Mantis, Thylacosmilus)Darwin loves you.

Hi, ICANT.Let me clarify Crashfrog's point. The above is an image of part of an aspen clone. All these trees have identical DNA, because they are all actually one single organism. However, you'll note that each tree differs from the others in terms of the number and location of branches, the pattern of bumps and twists in the trunk, and the timing of leaf yellowing in the autumn.DNA does not encode these characteristics: rather, they develop in response to environmental factors. This gives the tree flexibility: it can still grow right side-up if the seed lands upside-down in the soil, and it can still grow with its leaves facing the sunlight even if the seed lands in the wrong orientation.I hope this makes more sense now.

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-Bluejay (a.k.a. Mantis, Thylacosmilus)Darwin loves you.

Hi, ICANT. Yes, I am.You can get an idea of the way aspen clones work by reading this Wiki article on an aspen clone nicknamed "Pando," which is thought by many to be the largest organism alive today.

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-Bluejay (a.k.a. Mantis, Thylacosmilus)Darwin loves you.

Hi, Goldrush. Any question can be answered on a number of scales. For instance, let's analyze the question, "Why do we eat?"

• On the scale of cells, we could say, "We eat because eating provides energy that can power the cell's processes and provide raw substance for chemical reactions."
• On the scale of individual people, we could say, "We eat because we're hungry."
• On the scale of species, we could say, "We eat because, if we didn't eat, our species would have been extinct by now."
• On the scale of the ecosystem, we could say, "We eat because we are animals, and animals are physiologically designed/adapted to derive sustenance from consuming other organisms."
• In a universe that was designed by God, we could even go so far as to say, on the scale of all Creation, "We eat because God's eternal plans called for intelligent creatures that have to eat to sustain themselves."

These are five different answers to the question, "Why do we eat?"
Which of these is the correct answer to the question?
Are they not all correct?Just because an answer to a "why" question does not provide a "motive" or "purpose" that would fit into a "Great Plan for all the Cosmos," doesn't mean that it is not a correct answer to the "why" question.There is no reason to insist that the only suitable answer to a "why" question is a grand, cosmic-scale answer that makes the universe seem to have purpose.Added by edit: There is also no reason to assume that one correct answer to a "why" question precludes another answer to the same question (i.e., we can eat both because our stomach is growling and because our cells need the sustenance).----- You're not using the word "direct" correctly.A computer functions because all the parts are in the correct layout.
The parts are in the correct layout because somebody put them in that layout.The person making the computer only has direct control over the layout of the parts. It is the layout of the parts that directly determines whether or not the computer functions.So, the computer functioning is actually the indirect result of it being designed and assembled by a person.Edited by Bluejay, : Marked addition.

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-Bluejay (a.k.a. Mantis, Thylacosmilus)Darwin loves you.

Hi, ICANT. No. I don't think any new trunk derives from a single cell in the root system, so each trunk should be buffered against any mutations that happen in individual cells.Also, basic plant physiology shows that the growth habit of a plant is flexible. You can change the shape of a plant's body by altering its access to light and water or by altering the nutrients in the soil. Some plants grow bulbs, and you can divide a bulb in half, thus producing two plants with the same DNA, but grow from them two plants that look quite different, even without actively altering its environment. This is because plant growth is flexible. This is not a controversial thing that I'm saying, either: it's common knowledge.

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-Bluejay (a.k.a. Mantis, Thylacosmilus)Darwin loves you.

Hi, ICANT.An example of instructions:

1. Lay the board on the ground.
2. With a pen, make a mark 1 inch from the end of the board and 1 inch from the edge
3. Place the board against the other board such that the end is flush with the face of the other board.
4. Place the pointy end of a nail against this pen mark and hold the nail firmly between the thumb and forefinger.
5. With a hammer in the other hand, and while still holding the nail between thumb and forefinger, strike the head of the nail several times, until the pointy end is buried solidly into the wood.
6. Let go of the nail and continue to strike the nail with the hammer until the nail is buried to its head in the wood.

Do blueprints contain things like this? No, no they don't. I have never worked construction in my life (beyond home-improvement projects with my father, during which I was never given the opportunity to view any blueprints), but even I know this.This is the kind of thing that DNA codes for: it codes for the materials and the processes that produce the final product, not for the actual final product itself. DNA produces proteins, which are like the boards and nails and shingles, and these proteins interact with other proteins---which are like the construction workers---that regulate where the boards and nails and shingles go and when they go there. Other proteins---also produced by DNA---regulate when and where DNA produces which proteins.You've let the longstanding "blueprint" analogy for DNA lead you to make erroneous conclusions about how DNA functions.

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-Bluejay (a.k.a. Mantis, Thylacosmilus)Darwin loves you.

Hi, Sac. I think Dr Adequate's conclusion about how computers are produced is strongly influenced by his observation that the process by which they are produced is pretty well documented, and is less influenced by an examination of its characteristics.However, since the process by which trees were originally produced is not so well documented, Dr A has attempted to use the characteristics of computers as a means of diagnosing whether trees were produced by the same process as computers.This method has not lead Dr A to the conclusion that trees were produced by the same process as computers.I think this is very sensible.Edited by Bluejay, : No reason given.

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-Bluejay (a.k.a. Mantis, Thylacosmilus)Darwin loves you.

Hi, ICANT. Tissue differentiation. Limb buds in animals are not formed from a single cell, but from a group of cells that are induced together to begin growing into a limb.Plant stems (such as tree trunks), I believe are induced to grow in the same way. I invite you to read the Wiki article on meristems if you're interested in learning more about the physiology of plant organ development.-----However, let's not lose sight of the main point by chasing tangents: the point is that plant growth is highly flexible, and is not rigidly encoded by the DNA. DNA provides the materials and protocols for the "construction" process, but not an overall plan.In effect, DNA is the factory for hammers, levels, shingles, drywall and spackling paste, as well as the automated processes that use these materials to make a house; it is not the blueprint that organizes how all of these things combine: they are organized and combined by dint of their characteristics and behavior, not by their adherence to an overall plan that was designed beforehand.The reason we got on to this tangent is because you challenged Dr Adequate's statement that trees can reproduce autonomously, while buildings cannot, which was Dr A's response to Goldrush's question, "If buildings are built by intelligent agents, why do you think trees are any different?" (paraphrased).Edited by Bluejay, : "tress" is an incorrect variant of "trees"

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-Bluejay (a.k.a. Mantis, Thylacosmilus)Darwin loves you.

Hi, ICANT. Why don't all builders use nail guns or red bricks?Different tree species have different genomes. Different genomes means different tools and materials. Reproductive systems are part of these tools and materials that might differ between species.----- I'm not clear on what you're saying here.A meristem is an entire cluster of undifferentiated cells that are all dividing simultaneously. If there are four meristematic cells in the cluster, and a mutation happens while one of them is dividing, it is only going to be found in one of the four daughter cells (which means one out of eight total cells, if you count the parent cells).So, while mutations will happen during division, no particular mutation will become fixed in all the cells of a single trunk. So, the trunk shouldn't differ substantially from other trunks in terms of the overall or "average" genome of its constituent cells.But, I don't know what you mean by "could only take place by the information contained in the original cells's DNA."

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-Bluejay (a.k.a. Mantis, Thylacosmilus)Darwin loves you.

Hi, ICANT. Not by the information contained in the original cell's DNA.I'm not a cell biologist, but here is my understanding. In general, there are molecules in the cell (not DNA) that send signals (also not DNA) when the cell has grown large enough to divide into two smaller cells.The role of DNA in this process is to produce the molecules that send the signals. To say that call division is caused by the information contained in the cell's DNA is like saying that the house is built by the information used to make the construction workers' hammers. Edited by AdminPD, : Warning

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-Bluejay (a.k.a. Mantis, Thylacosmilus)Darwin loves you.

Hi, ICANT. I was simplifying.The role DNA plays in deciding an organism's body plan is in the production of proteins.
The role DNA plays in deciding an organism's body plan is not in specifying the design of the final product.DNA is involved in producing the materials, which produce the final product by dint of their properties. There is nothing analogous to a blueprint in this process! Edited by Bluejay, : "body plan," not "body play"Edited by AdminPD, : Warning

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-Bluejay (a.k.a. Mantis, Thylacosmilus)Darwin loves you.

Hi, Keridel. I believe an architectural rendition is a computer model or other recreation of what a building will look like when it's complete?This is not what anybody on this thread has been referring to. We have all been talking about the schematic drawings that specify lengths, widths and densities of the complete building.Nobody on this thread is confused about what a blueprint is: some people, however, are confused about whether or not a blueprint is a set of instructions for building a house.Instructions are step-by-step descriptions of the procedures involved in a building process.
Blueprints are schematics that provide an overview of what the final product should be like.DNA is like the former; it is not like the latter. Edited by AdminPD, : Warning

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-Bluejay (a.k.a. Mantis, Thylacosmilus)Darwin loves you.