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Author Topic:   Where did the matter and energy come from?
frako
Member (Idle past 306 days)
Posts: 2932
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010


Message 241 of 357 (605226)
02-17-2011 6:48 PM
Reply to: Message 229 by John 10:10
02-17-2011 4:14 PM


Re: A "just right" universe is our universe.
Ignore the truth of the REAL Divine Tailor who says He will create a new heaven and a new earth to your own destruction (Rev 20:15 - 21:1).
But I'm sure John the Apostle never won any Pulitzer prizes for his scientific endeavors.
Neither did the prophets of Odin who said that a grate wolf will eat the Sun, but hay not everyone is a scientist.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 229 by John 10:10, posted 02-17-2011 4:14 PM John 10:10 has not replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 242 of 357 (605275)
02-18-2011 7:30 AM
Reply to: Message 233 by John 10:10
02-17-2011 4:27 PM


Re: A "just right" universe is our universe.
J10 writes:
Again you are deciding that God was wasteful in designing such a vast and seemingly inhospitable universe wherein He created matter and energy that holds it all together
That is exactly what I am saying. Profligacy. Needless waste. The vast stage is too grand for the drama. Billions of years to reach a point where a single metaphorical catastrophic nailfile swipe would wipe out all traces of human existence. None of thiese things indicate a universe designed with us in mind. You are still thinking like that puddle I talked about.
J10 writes:
Are you not now playing God?
If I was omnipotent I reckon I could have done better than D- in universe creation class yeah.
J10 writes:
Nice dodge, putting aside the why!
You told me it was above my pay grade.
J10 writes:
If you really wany to know what God is paying me, let's go to another forum section and discuss.
I'm guessing you are middle management pay grade. "If sufficient number of management layers are superimposed on top of each other, it can be assured that disaster is not left to chance."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 233 by John 10:10, posted 02-17-2011 4:27 PM John 10:10 has not replied

  
John 10:10
Member (Idle past 2996 days)
Posts: 766
From: Mt Juliet / TN / USA
Joined: 02-01-2006


Message 243 of 357 (605285)
02-18-2011 11:23 AM
Reply to: Message 236 by jar
02-17-2011 4:59 PM


Re: A "just right" universe is our universe.
jar writes:
John 10:10 writes:
jar writes:
I am smart enough to understand that the Universe is not created to suit us and that you only mock and blaspheme GOD and the Holy Spirit.
WOW! How am I blaspheming GOD and the Holy Spirit by saying God crerated the universe to suit us as a habitable place for us to live in?
It is called Hubris as well, thinking GOD creates for YOU, that humans are somehow the purpose of the Universe.
But yet again, I notice that you fail to address the issues raised.
The issue is whether or not this Universe is "just right" for humans.
Do we build houses, heaters, air conditioners, warm clothing, scuba gear, hats, sunglasses, bifocals?
It is hubris to not believe God created the universe so that He could give breath to people who live on the earth.
quote:
Thus says God the LORD, Who created the heavens and stretched them out, Who spread out the earth and its offspring, Who gives breath to the people on it and spirit to those who walk in it. (Isa 42:5)
Yes, we build all kinds of things with the wisdom and creativeness that God gives to man. These man-made things do not come about by chance or accident, nor did God's Tailor-made universe.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 236 by jar, posted 02-17-2011 4:59 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 244 by jar, posted 02-18-2011 11:35 AM John 10:10 has not replied
 Message 246 by Percy, posted 02-18-2011 11:47 AM John 10:10 has not replied
 Message 248 by New Cat's Eye, posted 02-18-2011 4:47 PM John 10:10 has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 244 of 357 (605289)
02-18-2011 11:35 AM
Reply to: Message 243 by John 10:10
02-18-2011 11:23 AM


Re: A "just right" universe is our universe.
John 10:10 writes:
jar writes:
John 10:10 writes:
jar writes:
I am smart enough to understand that the Universe is not created to suit us and that you only mock and blaspheme GOD and the Holy Spirit.
WOW! How am I blaspheming GOD and the Holy Spirit by saying God crerated the universe to suit us as a habitable place for us to live in?
It is called Hubris as well, thinking GOD creates for YOU, that humans are somehow the purpose of the Universe.
But yet again, I notice that you fail to address the issues raised.
The issue is whether or not this Universe is "just right" for humans.
Do we build houses, heaters, air conditioners, warm clothing, scuba gear, hats, sunglasses, bifocals?
It is hubris to not believe God created the universe so that He could give breath to people who live on the earth.
quote:
Thus says God the LORD, Who created the heavens and stretched them out, Who spread out the earth and its offspring, Who gives breath to the people on it and spirit to those who walk in it. (Isa 42:5)
Yes, we build all kinds of things with the wisdom and creativeness that God gives to man. These man-made things do not come about by chance or accident, nor did God's Tailor-made universe.
Do you even know what the term hubris means?
Have you ever really read the Bible?
It is Hubris to think that you are important enough to have GOD create a universe just for you.
And if, as you admit, we do have to change the universe to make it just right for us, it makes your position look even sillier.
The facts are:
almost all of the universe is not "just right" for humans.
almost all of the earth is not "just right" for humans.
GOD is not some hireling that creates just for humans.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 243 by John 10:10, posted 02-18-2011 11:23 AM John 10:10 has not replied

  
John 10:10
Member (Idle past 2996 days)
Posts: 766
From: Mt Juliet / TN / USA
Joined: 02-01-2006


Message 245 of 357 (605290)
02-18-2011 11:39 AM
Reply to: Message 240 by frako
02-17-2011 6:46 PM


Re: A "just right" universe is our universe.
frako writes:
But I think this paticular space exploration looking for alien planets out there somewhere that we can never reach/visit is a great waste of time and money. That's the sad joke!
Why because we might understand the universe better, o i forgot you alredy understand it it was made by the snapping of gods fingers 6000 years ago. Well sadly moste of us are not convinced by these bead time stories and we want to know the truth.
And who knows maybe one day we will be capable of traversing the distances between stars and knowing where potentialy habitable planets are might be a good thing then or should we first build warp drives and just blindly point at a star and fly there with bible in hand hoping the place will be habitable and close enough.
Me thinks you've been living in Roddenberry's Star Trek fiction world too long! We may be able to travel to "parts unknown" in the future, but not in these earth suits we have now.
PS - I'm an old-age creationist, not a young one as you suggest. Snapping fingers may be your thing, but speaking is God's thing.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 240 by frako, posted 02-17-2011 6:46 PM frako has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 247 by New Cat's Eye, posted 02-18-2011 11:50 AM John 10:10 has replied
 Message 249 by frako, posted 02-20-2011 4:49 AM John 10:10 has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22394
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 246 of 357 (605291)
02-18-2011 11:47 AM
Reply to: Message 243 by John 10:10
02-18-2011 11:23 AM


Re: A "just right" universe is our universe.
John 10:10 writes:
It is hubris to not believe God created the universe so that He could give breath to people who live on the earth.
So it is hubris if someone doesn't share your religious beliefs? Tell me, when the devout Hindu tells you it is hubris to not believe the universe is eternal and has always existed, what do you say? And when the devout Moslem tells you it is hubris to believe that God could have a son, what do you say?
Maybe since this is a science thread we should just focus on the evidence. The evidence we have in hand allows no firm conclusions, but there are probably a few things we could say with a fair degree of confidence. First, if the laws of the universe were different then life as we know it would not exist. Maybe there would be life, maybe not, it would depend on how the laws differed, but it wouldn't be the same as life as we know it.
But if the question is whether there could be life in a universe with different laws, one could speculate based on how much one could work out about the physics of these alternate laws, but the complexity probably rules out anything conclusive.
And if the question is whether life could arise on other planets, the answer is that we don't have evidence for life anywhere but Earth, but we see nothing that rules it out.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 243 by John 10:10, posted 02-18-2011 11:23 AM John 10:10 has not replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 247 of 357 (605292)
02-18-2011 11:50 AM
Reply to: Message 245 by John 10:10
02-18-2011 11:39 AM


Re: A "just right" universe is our universe.
We may be able to travel to "parts unknown" in the future, but not in these earth suits we have now.
That would indicate that the universe is NOT "just right" for us. What makes you think it is? Especially in light of the fact that 99.999% of it would kill us instantly.
And would you also argue that a pothole shows signs of being designed to fit perfectly around the puddle that is in it? That is the same argument as the universe or earth being made just right for our existence.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 245 by John 10:10, posted 02-18-2011 11:39 AM John 10:10 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 251 by John 10:10, posted 02-21-2011 12:40 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 248 of 357 (605337)
02-18-2011 4:47 PM
Reply to: Message 243 by John 10:10
02-18-2011 11:23 AM


Arrogance
It is hubris to not believe God created the universe so that He could give breath to people who live on the earth.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 243 by John 10:10, posted 02-18-2011 11:23 AM John 10:10 has not replied

  
frako
Member (Idle past 306 days)
Posts: 2932
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010


Message 249 of 357 (605468)
02-20-2011 4:49 AM
Reply to: Message 245 by John 10:10
02-18-2011 11:39 AM


Re: A "just right" universe is our universe.
Me thinks you've been living in Roddenberry's Star Trek fiction world too long! We may be able to travel to "parts unknown" in the future, but not in these earth suits we have now.
PS - I'm an old-age creationist, not a young one as you suggest. Snapping fingers may be your thing, but speaking is God's thing.
Damm and i thought in a tailor made universe for humans it would be easy to travel the stars.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 245 by John 10:10, posted 02-18-2011 11:39 AM John 10:10 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 250 by AZPaul3, posted 02-20-2011 7:08 AM frako has not replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 250 of 357 (605477)
02-20-2011 7:08 AM
Reply to: Message 249 by frako
02-20-2011 4:49 AM


It's Full of Stars!
Damm and i thought in a tailor made universe for humans it would be easy to travel the stars.
It is easy to travel the stars. We do it all the time from our creative imaginations; the same place J10's god and his homo-centric universe come from.
Laws of Physics? Don't need no stinkin' Laws of Physics!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 249 by frako, posted 02-20-2011 4:49 AM frako has not replied

  
John 10:10
Member (Idle past 2996 days)
Posts: 766
From: Mt Juliet / TN / USA
Joined: 02-01-2006


Message 251 of 357 (605662)
02-21-2011 12:40 PM
Reply to: Message 247 by New Cat's Eye
02-18-2011 11:50 AM


Re: A "just right" universe is our universe.
Catholic Scientist writes:
We may be able to travel to "parts unknown" in the future, but not in these earth suits we have now.
That would indicate that the universe is NOT "just right" for us. What makes you think it is? Especially in light of the fact that 99.999% of it would kill us instantly.
And would you also argue that a pothole shows signs of being designed to fit perfectly around the puddle that is in it? That is the same argument as the universe or earth being made just right for our existence.
You can live in this old one if you like, but I was referring to the new heavenly bodies God's family will receive when He creates a new heavens and a new earth.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 247 by New Cat's Eye, posted 02-18-2011 11:50 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 252 by New Cat's Eye, posted 02-21-2011 1:45 PM John 10:10 has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 252 of 357 (605666)
02-21-2011 1:45 PM
Reply to: Message 251 by John 10:10
02-21-2011 12:40 PM


Re: A "just right" universe is our universe.
You can live in this old one if you like, but I was referring to the new heavenly bodies God's family will receive when He creates a new heavens and a new earth.
Oh, I get it.
Excuse me for mistaking you as staying in the context of planetary travel.
But what does that have to do with the topic? And why are you avoiding discussion of it? I did ask you a direct question.
Do you have any intention of debating your claims?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 251 by John 10:10, posted 02-21-2011 12:40 PM John 10:10 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 253 by John 10:10, posted 02-21-2011 3:22 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
John 10:10
Member (Idle past 2996 days)
Posts: 766
From: Mt Juliet / TN / USA
Joined: 02-01-2006


Message 253 of 357 (605685)
02-21-2011 3:22 PM
Reply to: Message 252 by New Cat's Eye
02-21-2011 1:45 PM


Re: A "just right" universe is our universe.
Catholic Scientist writes:
You can live in this old one if you like, but I was referring to the new heavenly bodies God's family will receive when He creates a new heavens and a new earth.
Oh, I get it.
Excuse me for mistaking you as staying in the context of planetary travel.
But what does that have to do with the topic? And why are you avoiding discussion of it? I did ask you a direct question.
Do you have any intention of debating your claims?
Since you said that 99.999% of the universe would kill us instantly if we tried to live out there somewhere, it seems obvious that a Divine Tailor has made the 0.001% called earth just right (I believe the % is much much higher than that) with an earth revolving around a just right sun at a just right distance with just right ingredients necessary for man's existance. But no amount of debating would ever convince you of this truth.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 252 by New Cat's Eye, posted 02-21-2011 1:45 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 254 by jar, posted 02-21-2011 3:34 PM John 10:10 has replied
 Message 255 by Percy, posted 02-21-2011 3:37 PM John 10:10 has not replied
 Message 256 by New Cat's Eye, posted 02-21-2011 3:43 PM John 10:10 has not replied
 Message 257 by frako, posted 02-21-2011 6:32 PM John 10:10 has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 254 of 357 (605688)
02-21-2011 3:34 PM
Reply to: Message 253 by John 10:10
02-21-2011 3:22 PM


Re: A "just right" universe is our universe.
John 10:10 writes:
Catholic Scientist writes:
You can live in this old one if you like, but I was referring to the new heavenly bodies God's family will receive when He creates a new heavens and a new earth.
Oh, I get it.
Excuse me for mistaking you as staying in the context of planetary travel.
But what does that have to do with the topic? And why are you avoiding discussion of it? I did ask you a direct question.
Do you have any intention of debating your claims?
Since you said that 99.999% of the universe would kill us instantly if we tried to live out there somewhere, it seems obvious that a Divine Tailor has made the 0.001% called earth just right (I believe the % is much much higher than that) with an earth revolving around a just right sun at a just right distance with just right ingredients necessary for man's existance. But no amount of debating would ever convince you of this truth.
Then you have a very silly idea of what "just right" means.
The sun is not "just right" and in fact varies constantly in just about every possible measurement.
The earth is not at the "just right" distance from the sun, and in fact varies by over three million miles every year.
The earth does not have the "just right" ingredients for life and in fact has many ingredients that will kill living things.
You have been asked time after time to support your assertions and have consistently failed to do so.
It appears that you cannot even do simple math as well. If you think that the earth or even the solar system makes up .001% of even this galaxy, you are profoundly ignorant. And this galaxy is only one of billions of galaxies out there.
So once again, as before, where is your evidence of this so called "just right" universe?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 253 by John 10:10, posted 02-21-2011 3:22 PM John 10:10 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 258 by John 10:10, posted 02-23-2011 2:16 PM jar has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22394
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 255 of 357 (605689)
02-21-2011 3:37 PM
Reply to: Message 253 by John 10:10
02-21-2011 3:22 PM


Re: A "just right" universe is our universe.
John 10:10 writes:
Since you said that 99.999% of the universe would kill us instantly if we tried to live out there somewhere, it seems obvious that a Divine Tailor has made the 0.001% called earth just right (I believe the % is much much higher than that)...
You believe that much, much more than .001% of the universe is suitable for life? Did you know that the volume of our solar system out to the Oort cloud is 2.7 1038 cubic miles? And that the total volume of habitable area in the solar system is within 3 miles of the Earth's surface, which is 6.03 108 cubic miles. That means that this is the percentage of the nearby universe suitable for life:
.000000000000000000000000000001%
Care to try again?
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 253 by John 10:10, posted 02-21-2011 3:22 PM John 10:10 has not replied

  
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