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Author Topic:   Born Again
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 1 of 388 (605339)
02-18-2011 4:49 PM


Origins of an Idea
This notion of being 'born again' as an essential part of becoming a Christian seems widespread throughout the religion. However, I was looking for some sort of textual basis behind the concept and came up empty-handed. I couldn't find a lick of support anywhere in the New Testamentespecially in the words attributed to Jesusfor the idea that becoming a Christian requires being 'born again'.
So, what the heck does it mean to be 'born again', and where did the notion originate that such a thing were the beginning moment of the Christian life?
Jon
Edited by Jon, : subtitle; edit to fix signature glitch

Check out No webpage found at provided URL: Apollo's Temple!
Ignorance is temporary; you should be able to overcome it. - nwr

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by Dogmafood, posted 02-18-2011 6:46 PM Jon has replied
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 Message 16 by jaywill, posted 02-28-2011 4:17 PM Jon has not replied
 Message 73 by jaywill, posted 04-29-2011 7:40 AM Jon has not replied
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AdminSlev
Member (Idle past 4640 days)
Posts: 113
Joined: 03-28-2010


Message 2 of 388 (605341)
02-18-2011 4:59 PM


Thread Copied from Proposed New Topics Forum
Thread copied here from the Born Again thread in the Proposed New Topics forum.

Dogmafood
Member (Idle past 348 days)
Posts: 1815
From: Ontario Canada
Joined: 08-04-2010


Message 3 of 388 (605358)
02-18-2011 6:46 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Jon
02-18-2011 4:49 PM


Re: Origins of an Idea
Jhn 3:2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.
Jhn 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
Jhn 3:4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
Jhn 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and [of] the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
Jhn 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Jon, posted 02-18-2011 4:49 PM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by Jon, posted 02-18-2011 7:03 PM Dogmafood has not replied

Jon
Inactive Member


Message 4 of 388 (605359)
02-18-2011 7:03 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by Dogmafood
02-18-2011 6:46 PM


Re: Origins of an Idea
Okay. Can you explain how that supports the notion of 'born again'? A bare quotation doesn't help me too much.
Thanks,
Jon

Check out No webpage found at provided URL: Apollo's Temple!
Ignorance is temporary; you should be able to overcome it. - nwr

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Dogmafood, posted 02-18-2011 6:46 PM Dogmafood has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by Buzsaw, posted 02-18-2011 9:31 PM Jon has replied
 Message 324 by jaywill, posted 05-14-2011 12:32 PM Jon has replied

Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 5 of 388 (605380)
02-18-2011 9:31 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by Jon
02-18-2011 7:03 PM


Re: Origins of an Idea
The Greek text has it, anothen or "from above" rather than "again." ABE: Unless you are born from above....
I Corinthians 6:19 says:
quote:
19 Or know ye not that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit which is in you, which ye have from God? and ye are not your own;
John 1:12 (American Standard Version)
quote:
But as many as received him, to them gave he the right to become children of God, even to them that believe on his name:
1 John 5:11, 12:
quote:
And the witness is this, that God gave unto us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He that hath the Son hath the life; he that hath not the Son of God hath not the life.
1 Corinthians 12:13
quote:
For in one Spirit were we all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether bond or free; and were all made to drink of one Spirit.
14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.
American Standard Version (ASV)
Copyright 1901 Public Domain
Galatians 3:26
26 For ye are all sons of God, through faith, in Christ Jesus.
John 14:16
quote:
And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may be with you for ever,
17 even the Spirit of truth: whom the world cannot receive; for it beholdeth him not, neither knoweth him: ye know him; for he abideth with you, and shall be in you.
18 I will not leave you desolate: I come unto you.
19 Yet a little while, and the world beholdeth me no more; but ye behold me: because I live, ye shall live also.
20 In that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.
Romans 10:6:
quote:
Whosoever calleth upon his name shall be saved.
When you corroborate those and other related scriptures, being born from above entails the following:
Jesus is up in the cosmos in his father, Jehovah's throne place on the right hand of Jehovah"s throne acting as our mediator, priest and sacrificial lord and savior. When we receive Jesus, he himself does not come down from Heaven. It is the spirit of Jesus and of Jehovah his father that comes into our very bodies, mind and spirit. This is when we become born from above, or spiritually born, becoming sons/children of God.
> This is how Jesus is in the father (Jehovah), the father is in him, he in us and us in him. It's all by the Holy Spirit which is the only member of the Holy Trinity which is multi-present, being sent throughout the Universe, doing Jehovah's bidding.. This is the same spirit which moved upon the waters, etc, doing the work of creation on planet earth. Se also, Psalms 104:30.
quote:
He sends forth his spirit and they are created
Edited by Buzsaw, : As noted

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The Immeasurable Present Eternally Extends the Infinite Past And Infinitely Consumes The Eternal Future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by Jon, posted 02-18-2011 7:03 PM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by Jon, posted 02-19-2011 12:18 PM Buzsaw has replied

Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 6 of 388 (605409)
02-19-2011 7:19 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Jon
02-18-2011 4:49 PM


Re: Origins of an Idea
quote:
This notion of being 'born again' as an essential part of becoming a Christian seems widespread throughout the religion. However, I was looking for some sort of textual basis behind the concept and came up empty-handed. I couldn't find a lick of support anywhere in the New Testamentespecially in the words attributed to Jesusfor the idea that becoming a Christian requires being 'born again'.
This belief presupposes that humans are born with Original Sin. Being unable to understand perfection and sinless choices ourselves (due to the supposed corrupt nature) we have no alternative but to accept Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior and to allow Him to enter our hearts and take His rightful place on the throne of our conscious decisions, reasoning, and rationality. Thus, every decision that we ever make is filtered through the "mind of Christ" which is based dogmatically on His character in the Gospels and how we believe He would approach any and all challenging problems. Personally, I believe that Jesus was only human while on Earth, but that He may well now represent a mediation between a vast unknowable God and a relatively simple universal animal such as a human is. Others would disagree, saying that God created humans as His crowning achievement...It is wise to question any and all beliefs that we are taught.
Born Again-Wikipedia
Oops..Ijust noticed that I provided no textual basis, but the commonly used scriptures can be found in the link above.
Edited by Phat, : explanation of bare assertion and speculation

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Jon, posted 02-18-2011 4:49 PM Jon has not replied

Jon
Inactive Member


Message 7 of 388 (605416)
02-19-2011 12:18 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by Buzsaw
02-18-2011 9:31 PM


Re: Origins of an Idea
When you corroborate those and other related scriptures, being born from above entails the following:
But, then, is it really being born 'from above' at all? Jesus mentions a lot of these entailments throughout the Gospel of John as directives to his followers. But he never says anything about them being born 'from above', or 'born again'.
Is the term just a misnomer?
Jon

Check out No webpage found at provided URL: Apollo's Temple!
Ignorance is temporary; you should be able to overcome it. - nwr

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by Buzsaw, posted 02-18-2011 9:31 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by Buzsaw, posted 02-19-2011 1:19 PM Jon has replied

Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 8 of 388 (605419)
02-19-2011 1:19 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by Jon
02-19-2011 12:18 PM


Re: Origins of an Idea
Jon writes:
When you corroborate those and other related scriptures, being born from above entails the following:
But, then, is it really being born 'from above' at all? Jesus mentions a lot of these entailments throughout the Gospel of John as directives to his followers. But he never says anything about them being born 'from above', or 'born again'.
Is the term just a misnomer?
Jon
Say what? John 3:5 is quoting Jesus telling Nicodemus that he must be born from above of God's spirit, i.e. the Holy Spirit, in order to see God's kingdom. If he didn't mean what he said, what do you think he meant?

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The Immeasurable Present Eternally Extends the Infinite Past And Infinitely Consumes The Eternal Future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by Jon, posted 02-19-2011 12:18 PM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by Jon, posted 02-19-2011 1:54 PM Buzsaw has replied

Jon
Inactive Member


Message 9 of 388 (605421)
02-19-2011 1:54 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Buzsaw
02-19-2011 1:19 PM


Re: Origins of an Idea
Say what? John 3:5 is quoting Jesus telling Nicodemus that he must be born from above of God's spirit, i.e. the Holy Spirit, in order to see God's kingdom. If he didn't mean what he said, what do you think he meant?
There simply seems to be nothing overly special or procedural about what Jesus is saying. In fact, most of what he says to Nicodemus is just gibberish. There are no special instructions to help Nicodemus understand what it means to be born 'from above', and Nicodemus' repeated bouts of confusion testify to that fact.
How are you so certain what the passage means without any further context? Even Jesus' discourse partner is baffled, with a confusion Jesus never bothers to clear up.
Jon

Check out No webpage found at provided URL: Apollo's Temple!
Ignorance is temporary; you should be able to overcome it. - nwr

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by Buzsaw, posted 02-19-2011 1:19 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by ringo, posted 02-19-2011 2:59 PM Jon has replied
 Message 11 by Buzsaw, posted 02-19-2011 3:39 PM Jon has not replied
 Message 86 by Modulous, posted 05-01-2011 9:52 AM Jon has not replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 10 of 388 (605427)
02-19-2011 2:59 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by Jon
02-19-2011 1:54 PM


Re: Origins of an Idea
Jon writes:
There simply seems to be nothing overly special or procedural about what Jesus is saying.
Exactly. The theme of rebirth/renewal/revival is nothing new.
Jon writes:
Even Jesus' discourse partner is baffled, with a confusion Jesus never bothers to clear up.
Well, He did say, "Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?" (John 3:10) If Nicodemus had understood his Judaism, he would have understood what Jesus meant, that He wasn't inventing something new outside of Judaism.

"I'm Rory Bellows, I tell you! And I got a lot of corroborating evidence... over here... by the throttle!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by Jon, posted 02-19-2011 1:54 PM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by Jon, posted 02-19-2011 4:40 PM ringo has not replied

Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 11 of 388 (605428)
02-19-2011 3:39 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by Jon
02-19-2011 1:54 PM


Re: Origins of an Idea
Jon writes:
Say what? John 3:5 is quoting Jesus telling Nicodemus that he must be born from above of God's spirit, i.e. the Holy Spirit, in order to see God's kingdom. If he didn't mean what he said, what do you think he meant?
There simply seems to be nothing overly special or procedural about what Jesus is saying. In fact, most of what he says to Nicodemus is just gibberish. There are no special instructions to help Nicodemus understand what it means to be born 'from above', and Nicodemus' repeated bouts of confusion testify to that fact.
How are you so certain what the passage means without any further context? Even Jesus' discourse partner is baffled, with a confusion Jesus never bothers to clear up.
Jon
Why do you think I went to the work of citing corroborating scripture for the clarification of Jesus's statement. You're mine quoting Jesus, isolating one statement so as to obfuscate his message to Nicodemus. In so doing, you undermine the scripture and teaching of Jesus at large.
Sons/children are not made. They are born. Adam and eve were intelligent human-kind creatures of God, designed after his image. NT spiritually born sons/children are what Nicodemus spoke of. In the OT, God's children of Israel were not instructed to refer to him as father. It was a different dispensational era of humanity.
The OT predicted the kingdom of Jehovah to come on earth. The NT depicts a unique dispensation of a called out people from all nations to become the spiritual bride of Christ to rule with him for the messianic millennium prophesied for the latter days in the restored nation of Israel.
It is the children or redeemed saints of Jehovah who will rule with Jesus on earth. Thus the prophecies of this new era are fast emerging into fulfillment before our eyes and ears.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The Immeasurable Present Eternally Extends the Infinite Past And Infinitely Consumes The Eternal Future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by Jon, posted 02-19-2011 1:54 PM Jon has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by jar, posted 02-19-2011 4:05 PM Buzsaw has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 12 of 388 (605431)
02-19-2011 4:05 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by Buzsaw
02-19-2011 3:39 PM


Re: Origins of an Idea
Buzsaw writes:
Jon writes:
Say what? John 3:5 is quoting Jesus telling Nicodemus that he must be born from above of God's spirit, i.e. the Holy Spirit, in order to see God's kingdom. If he didn't mean what he said, what do you think he meant?
There simply seems to be nothing overly special or procedural about what Jesus is saying. In fact, most of what he says to Nicodemus is just gibberish. There are no special instructions to help Nicodemus understand what it means to be born 'from above', and Nicodemus' repeated bouts of confusion testify to that fact.
How are you so certain what the passage means without any further context? Even Jesus' discourse partner is baffled, with a confusion Jesus never bothers to clear up.
Jon
Why do you think I went to the work of citing corroborating scripture for the clarification of Jesus's statement. You're mine quoting Jesus, isolating one statement so as to obfuscate his message to Nicodemus. In so doing, you undermine the scripture and teaching of Jesus at large.
Sons/children are not made. They are born. Adam and eve were intelligent human-kind creatures of God, designed after his image. NT spiritually born sons/children are what Nicodemus spoke of. In the OT, God's children of Israel were not instructed to refer to him as father. It was a different dispensational era of humanity.
The OT predicted the kingdom of Jehovah to come on earth. The NT depicts a unique dispensation of a called out people from all nations to become the spiritual bride of Christ to rule with him for the messianic millennium prophesied for the latter days in the restored nation of Israel.
It is the children or redeemed saints of Jehovah who will rule with Jesus on earth. Thus the prophecies of this new era are fast emerging into fulfillment before our eyes and ears.
Well, actually it was YOU once again taking quotes out of context and pretending that they support your position.
Sons and children can be made, and are made throughout the Bible.
Once again you also misrepresent the Bible by making claims without referring to Chapter and Verse. If you do that we can have yet another thread where we actually examine your quote mined passages and see if they are as invalid as all your claimed prophecy.
And no, you have NEVER shown that any prophecies have or are being fulfilled yet continue to make that same false assertion.
There is no support for original sin or original guilt to be found in the Old Testament and the concept of being Born Again was seen as continuing and ongoing task throughout out life in the Old Testament.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by Buzsaw, posted 02-19-2011 3:39 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by Jon, posted 02-19-2011 4:43 PM jar has replied
 Message 222 by Buzsaw, posted 05-06-2011 9:01 AM jar has replied

Jon
Inactive Member


Message 13 of 388 (605435)
02-19-2011 4:40 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by ringo
02-19-2011 2:59 PM


Re: Origins of an Idea
When I read what Jesus says to Nicodemus, of the parts that actually make sense, it seems like Jesus is just cryptically talking about some sort of spiritual baptism at first, and then about believing in God's son afterward when Nicodemus asks for clarification.
I am not sure, though, what that all means, or how it relates to 'born again'.
Jon

Check out No webpage found at provided URL: Apollo's Temple!
Ignorance is temporary; you should be able to overcome it. - nwr

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by ringo, posted 02-19-2011 2:59 PM ringo has not replied

Jon
Inactive Member


Message 14 of 388 (605436)
02-19-2011 4:43 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by jar
02-19-2011 4:05 PM


Re: Origins of an Idea
... the concept of being Born Again was seen as continuing and ongoing task throughout out life in the Old Testament.
And I don't see how Jesus' lesson to Nicodemus is meant to describe some sort of one-time, instant replacement for that ongoing process that can be accomplished with a few dances and a profession of belief.
Unless I'm missing something...

Check out No webpage found at provided URL: Apollo's Temple!
Ignorance is temporary; you should be able to overcome it. - nwr

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by jar, posted 02-19-2011 4:05 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by jar, posted 02-19-2011 4:57 PM Jon has seen this message but not replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 15 of 388 (605438)
02-19-2011 4:57 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by Jon
02-19-2011 4:43 PM


Re: Origins of an Idea
Jon writes:
... the concept of being Born Again was seen as continuing and ongoing task throughout out life in the Old Testament.
And I don't see how Jesus' lesson to Nicodemus is meant to describe some sort of one-time, instant replacement for that ongoing process that can be accomplished with a few dances and a profession of belief.
Unless I'm missing something...
If you look for example at the tradition of Baptism as found within the polemic it involved repenting of past sins. It is a continuation of the Jewish position that each year, each day, is a new beginning, a rebirth.
The modern concept as so often marketed though is an easy sell, perhaps the best product invented since "getting Saved".

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by Jon, posted 02-19-2011 4:43 PM Jon has seen this message but not replied

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