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Author Topic:   Where did the matter and energy come from?
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 256 of 357 (605692)
02-21-2011 3:43 PM
Reply to: Message 253 by John 10:10
02-21-2011 3:22 PM


Re: A "just right" universe is our universe.
Since you said that 99.999% of the universe would kill us instantly if we tried to live out there somewhere, it seems obvious that a Divine Tailor has made the 0.001% called earth just right
But the earth is not "just right" either. Most of the surface of the Earth is inhospitable to humans as well.
(I believe the % is much much higher than that)
Do some math.
with an earth revolving around a just right sun at a just right distance with just right ingredients necessary for man's existance.
Obviously, we wouldn't find life where it couldn't live. Look at this puddle:
Do you see how the edges of that pothole are perfectly designed, down to the millimeter, so that it fits perfectly around the water in it?
That is just as amazing as finding that life fits withing the boudaries that the Earth allows for.
Oh, and the Habitable Zone around the sun is millions of miles thick. Its not nearly as "fine tuned" as your making it out to be.
But no amount of debating would ever convince you of this truth.
Simply show that there is any truth to it at all, I'm not unconvincable.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 253 by John 10:10, posted 02-21-2011 3:22 PM John 10:10 has not replied

  
frako
Member (Idle past 306 days)
Posts: 2932
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010


Message 257 of 357 (605722)
02-21-2011 6:32 PM
Reply to: Message 253 by John 10:10
02-21-2011 3:22 PM


Re: A "just right" universe is our universe.
Divine Tailor has made the 0.001% called earth just right
more like 0.00000000000000000000000000000 000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000 000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 000000000000000000000000000000 0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000........1% part of the universe erth
The space between stars and planets is huge if 2 galaxies collide lots of times no collisions of planets or stars accure because the vastness of space between them
with an earth revolving around a just right sun at a just right distance
well the Earth moves about 3 MILLION miles closer and further from the sun each year cause our orbit is an elipse. so not so exact, its estimated that the goldy locks zone starts somewhere by Venus and ends by mars kinda a large place so the distance is not that critical to the millimeter exact. Not even a million miles means much to be in the JUST right zone.
with just right ingredients necessary for man's existance.
Yes a whole 30% of this planet is land u know humans cant breathe the 70% of wather that covers the earth so kinda not that tailored for us maybe your god likes fish better then humans.
Of that 30% of the planets surface that is land a whole bunch is uninhabitable to us. Kinda does not look to tailored for man to me.
But no amount of debating would ever convince you of this truth
some evidence could help to convince me tough i know its impossible to convince a creo what the evidence shows.
Edited by frako, : No reason given.
Edited by frako, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 253 by John 10:10, posted 02-21-2011 3:22 PM John 10:10 has not replied

  
John 10:10
Member (Idle past 2996 days)
Posts: 766
From: Mt Juliet / TN / USA
Joined: 02-01-2006


Message 258 of 357 (606039)
02-23-2011 2:16 PM
Reply to: Message 254 by jar
02-21-2011 3:34 PM


Re: A "just right" universe is our universe.
jar writes:
John 10:10 writes:
Catholic Scientist writes:
You can live in this old one if you like, but I was referring to the new heavenly bodies God's family will receive when He creates a new heavens and a new earth.
Oh, I get it.
Excuse me for mistaking you as staying in the context of planetary travel.
But what does that have to do with the topic? And why are you avoiding discussion of it? I did ask you a direct question.
Do you have any intention of debating your claims?
Since you said that 99.999% of the universe would kill us instantly if we tried to live out there somewhere, it seems obvious that a Divine Tailor has made the 0.001% called earth just right (I believe the % is much much higher than that) with an earth revolving around a just right sun at a just right distance with just right ingredients necessary for man's existance. But no amount of debating would ever convince you of this truth.
Then you have a very silly idea of what "just right" means.
The sun is not "just right" and in fact varies constantly in just about every possible measurement.
The earth is not at the "just right" distance from the sun, and in fact varies by over three million miles every year.
The earth does not have the "just right" ingredients for life and in fact has many ingredients that will kill living things.
You have been asked time after time to support your assertions and have consistently failed to do so.
It appears that you cannot even do simple math as well. If you think that the earth or even the solar system makes up .001% of even this galaxy, you are profoundly ignorant. And this galaxy is only one of billions of galaxies out there.
So once again, as before, where is your evidence of this so called "just right" universe?
The earth is in the "just right" eliptical orbit around the sun that enables us to have seasons. If placed in an larger or smaller eliptical orbit, the seasons would be either too hot or too cold. Where else in the Solar System could there be life? There are estimates that planets at distances between 0.84 and 1.7 AU could sustain life. That range includes the Earth (1.0 AU) and Mars (1.5 AU) but not Venus (0.7 AU). Venus today has such a giant greenhouse effect that its surface temperature is 470 degrees Centigrade - a bit on the high side for life. Mars is now very cold (on average -48 degrees Centigrade) but there has been flowing water on it in the past. Unless you think you can live reasonably in +470 C or - 48 C temperatures, the earth seems to be "just right" for most of the earth's inhabitants.
The earth has enough "just right" ingredients necessary for man's existance, then God gives us wisdom to know the difference between the good ingredients and the bad ones. (Some seem to love the bad ingredients more than the good ones, to their own destruction.)
The 0.001% was Catholic Scientist's math number, not mine. As I said, my % would have been much much higher.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 254 by jar, posted 02-21-2011 3:34 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 259 by Huntard, posted 02-23-2011 2:33 PM John 10:10 has replied
 Message 260 by jar, posted 02-23-2011 3:00 PM John 10:10 has not replied
 Message 262 by Percy, posted 02-23-2011 3:41 PM John 10:10 has not replied
 Message 264 by frako, posted 02-23-2011 4:05 PM John 10:10 has not replied

  
Huntard
Member (Idle past 2295 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 259 of 357 (606043)
02-23-2011 2:33 PM
Reply to: Message 258 by John 10:10
02-23-2011 2:16 PM


Re: A "just right" universe is our universe.
John 10:10 writes:
The earth is in the "just right" eliptical orbit around the sun that enables us to have seasons. If placed in an larger or smaller eliptical orbit, the seasons would be either too hot or too cold.
The elliptical orbit has nothing to do with the seasons. It's the Earth's axial tilt that causes the seasons. It would help if you actually knew what you were talking about.
Where else in the Solar System could there be life?
Perhaps Europa? And why limit it to just our solar system?
There are estimates that planets at distances between 0.84 and 1.7 AU could sustain life. That range includes the Earth (1.0 AU) and Mars (1.5 AU) but not Venus (0.7 AU). Venus today has such a giant greenhouse effect that its surface temperature is 470 degrees Centigrade - a bit on the high side for life. Mars is now very cold (on average -48 degrees Centigrade) but there has been flowing water on it in the past. Unless you think you can live reasonably in +470 C or - 48 C temperatures, the earth seems to be "just right" for most of the earth's inhabitants.
Actually, I'm pretty sure -48 C isn't that much of a problem for life. Also, you weren't talking about life in general, you were talking about us (Homo Sapiens, like your later paragraphs imply). But it's nice of you to admit god made Earth for bacteria.
The earth has enough "just right" ingredients necessary for man's existance...
But most of it isn't just right and will kill man outright.
then God gives us wisdom to know the difference between the good ingredients and the bad ones.
No, we took that wisdom for ourselves.
(Some seem to love the bad ingredients more than the good ones, to their own destruction.)
Then following your earlier (faulty) assertion, god wasn't so good at providing the wisdom, now was he?
The 0.001% was Catholic Scientist's math number, not mine. As I said, my % would have been much much higher.
Then he was closer to the mark than you would have been. Because the percentage is actually lower.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 258 by John 10:10, posted 02-23-2011 2:16 PM John 10:10 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 261 by John 10:10, posted 02-23-2011 3:27 PM Huntard has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 260 of 357 (606045)
02-23-2011 3:00 PM
Reply to: Message 258 by John 10:10
02-23-2011 2:16 PM


Re: A "just right" universe is our universe.
John 10:10 writes:
The earth is in the "just right" eliptical orbit around the sun that enables us to have seasons. If placed in an larger or smaller eliptical orbit, the seasons would be either too hot or too cold. Where else in the Solar System could there be life? There are estimates that planets at distances between 0.84 and 1.7 AU could sustain life. That range includes the Earth (1.0 AU) and Mars (1.5 AU) but not Venus (0.7 AU). Venus today has such a giant greenhouse effect that its surface temperature is 470 degrees Centigrade - a bit on the high side for life. Mars is now very cold (on average -48 degrees Centigrade) but there has been flowing water on it in the past. Unless you think you can live reasonably in +470 C or - 48 C temperatures, the earth seems to be "just right" for most of the earth's inhabitants.
The earth has enough "just right" ingredients necessary for man's existance, then God gives us wisdom to know the difference between the good ingredients and the bad ones. (Some seem to love the bad ingredients more than the good ones, to their own destruction.)
The 0.001% was Catholic Scientist's math number, not mine. As I said, my % would have been much much higher.
More utter nonsense and just plain misrepresentation.
Let's see you support your math.
And the "Just Right" elliptical orbit is simply one of many possible orbits, is not significant and has almost nothing to do with the seasons.
When you post silly word salad like "The earth has enough "just right" ingredients necessary for man's existance [sic], then God gives us wisdom to know the difference between the good ingredients and the bad ones." you make a mockery out of the term "just right" and of God.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 258 by John 10:10, posted 02-23-2011 2:16 PM John 10:10 has not replied

  
John 10:10
Member (Idle past 2996 days)
Posts: 766
From: Mt Juliet / TN / USA
Joined: 02-01-2006


Message 261 of 357 (606052)
02-23-2011 3:27 PM
Reply to: Message 259 by Huntard
02-23-2011 2:33 PM


Re: A "just right" universe is our universe.
I don't know where you learned science, but both orbit around the sun and tilt combined produce the earth's seasons.
As for living in -48 C, maybe you should try living there on a permanent basis.
God's wisdom is knowing the difference between what is necessary and what is not with the ingredients He has provided. Since you think you have better wisdom than God's, all the best in using it.
As for %s, you got me. I meant greater in the smaller direction.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 259 by Huntard, posted 02-23-2011 2:33 PM Huntard has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 263 by Rahvin, posted 02-23-2011 3:46 PM John 10:10 has not replied
 Message 266 by Taq, posted 02-23-2011 5:24 PM John 10:10 has not replied
 Message 267 by Huntard, posted 02-23-2011 5:54 PM John 10:10 has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 262 of 357 (606054)
02-23-2011 3:41 PM
Reply to: Message 258 by John 10:10
02-23-2011 2:16 PM


Re: A "just right" universe is our universe.
John 10:10 writes:
The earth is in the "just right" eliptical orbit around the sun that enables us to have seasons.
Did you know that in the northern hemisphere winter occurs when the Earth is closest to the sun, and that summer occurs when it is furthest?
Did you know that the seasons are actually due to the Earth's tilt and not the path of its orbit?
Apparently not.
The earth has enough "just right" ingredients necessary for man's existance,...
Did you know that you're apparently perpetually unable to recognize one of the primary arguments people are making, despite constant repetition, that if the Earth were different, if its orbit were larger or smaller, if it's mass were larger or smaller, if the moon were closer or further, that life would be different? That just like the ground shapes the puddle, conditions on the Earth, whatever they were at the outset, would shape the life it engendered.
Apparently not.
...then God gives us wisdom to know the difference between the good ingredients and the bad ones.
Are you aware this thread is in one of the science forums and that you're supposed to be arguing science, not religion?
Apparently not.
The 0.001% was Catholic Scientist's math number, not mine. As I said, my % would have been much much higher.
Are you aware that a "much higher" value would be even more wrong than the 0.001% value?
Apparently not.
Are you aware that the likelihood is minuscule that while wrong in almost every detail you're right on the larger picture?
Apparently not.
--Percy
Edited by Percy, : Grammar.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 258 by John 10:10, posted 02-23-2011 2:16 PM John 10:10 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 265 by NoNukes, posted 02-23-2011 5:08 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4032
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 9.2


Message 263 of 357 (606056)
02-23-2011 3:46 PM
Reply to: Message 261 by John 10:10
02-23-2011 3:27 PM


Re: A "just right" universe is our universe.
This glass is "just right" for the water it contains. No other glass would be able to hold the water in exactly this shape - if the glass were rectangular instead of round, or more or less tapered, or slightly wider or smaller, the water would be in a completely different shape.
The chances of this glass holding the water out of all of the possible glasses in the world, or other conceivable glasses that we haven;t observed, is phenomenally unlikely. That this one glass should hold the water out of billions or trillions or more uncounted possibilities staggers the imagination.
It is inconceivable that such a thing could happen by chance - that the person who put the water in the glass just happened to grab this one glass from the shelf, just happened to have this glass clean and in the cabinet, just happened to have purchased it from the store at which this glass just happened to have been sold at, which just happened to have received it from a specific vendor who just happened to purchase it from a specific manufacturer, who at that exact time just happened to be making glasses in this precise size and shape...
An overarching intelligence has to have guided the entire process. The probabilities involved are simply far too remote to consider otherwise. For this water to be held in this exact shape...it must have a purpose.
Obviously, this glass of water is proof positive that there is a God, and He specifically made this glass (or inspired it to be made) for just this purpose, and guided it through all of its unlikely journeys into the home of the person who would fill it.
Or, you know...liquid water holds the shape of its container, and this amount of water had the exact same chance of being put into this glass as any other glass, and it happens all the time, billions of times per day. And if the Earth's distance from the Sun was a bit different, life as we know it would just be different from how we know it today, just as well adapted to the different climate of the planet as water would fill a different glass. Or perhaps life wouldn't exist here at all, and Earth would just be another of the many barren rocks orbiting an ordinary star out toward the edge of an ordinary galaxy, and by and large the universe would not notice or care, lacking the requisite mind to do either.
If you draw a hand of cards in poker, the chances of drawing that specific hand in that specific order are amazingly improbable...but the same is the case with every single hand you draw, whether it's a worthless hand or a royal flush.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 261 by John 10:10, posted 02-23-2011 3:27 PM John 10:10 has not replied

  
frako
Member (Idle past 306 days)
Posts: 2932
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010


Message 264 of 357 (606060)
02-23-2011 4:05 PM
Reply to: Message 258 by John 10:10
02-23-2011 2:16 PM


Re: A "just right" universe is our universe.
The earth is in the "just right" eliptical orbit around the sun that enables us to have seasons. If placed in an larger or smaller eliptical orbit, the seasons would be either too hot or too cold.
Sorry but our orbit that differs the range to the sun by about 3 MILLION miles HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH SEASONS unless your claiming that the whole erth has winter at the same time no what has to do with seasons is the pitch of the earth thats is what gives us seasones not the distance!!!
Where else in the Solar System could there be life?
Jupiter's moon Europa is a possible candidate mars was a possible candidate but lost most of its atmosphere <--- small
Venus today has such a giant greenhouse effect that its surface temperature is 470 degrees Centigrade
you answered that one green house effect screwed the planet more then the distance to the sun
or - 48 C temperatures,
the coldest populated area has a record of -72C and hits over -50 every year
The earth has enough "just right" ingredients necessary for man's existance, then God gives us wisdom to know the difference between the good ingredients and the bad ones
Sure tough Erth is more JUST right for FISH then man 70% of the world surface is watter guess he loves fish more then man.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 258 by John 10:10, posted 02-23-2011 2:16 PM John 10:10 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 268 by Huntard, posted 02-23-2011 6:00 PM frako has not replied
 Message 270 by NoNukes, posted 02-23-2011 6:20 PM frako has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 265 of 357 (606067)
02-23-2011 5:08 PM
Reply to: Message 262 by Percy
02-23-2011 3:41 PM


Percy writes:
Are you aware this thread is in one of the science forums and that you're supposed to be arguing science, not religion?
Apparently not.
Of course he's aware. That's why his posts contain just a wee bit of science (and usually bad science) in response to at least one point that you've raised.
J10:10 isn't really interested in debate, but in sharing the Good News for all men. He can keep this up indefinitely. A real debate about 'just right' constants might be interesting, but J10 does not seem capable of holding up his end.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 262 by Percy, posted 02-23-2011 3:41 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9973
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.7


Message 266 of 357 (606072)
02-23-2011 5:24 PM
Reply to: Message 261 by John 10:10
02-23-2011 3:27 PM


Re: A "just right" universe is our universe.
God's wisdom is knowing the difference between what is necessary and what is not with the ingredients He has provided.
Humans and other species evolved to fit the conditions that were already there. You have the cart in front of the horse.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 261 by John 10:10, posted 02-23-2011 3:27 PM John 10:10 has not replied

  
Huntard
Member (Idle past 2295 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 267 of 357 (606078)
02-23-2011 5:54 PM
Reply to: Message 261 by John 10:10
02-23-2011 3:27 PM


Re: A "just right" universe is our universe.
John 10:10 writes:
I don't know where you learned science, but both orbit around the sun and tilt combined produce the earth's seasons.
I learned it from the internet (mostly this site), which apparently you didn't. Because no, the orbit doesn't come into play at all.
As for living in -48 C, maybe you should try living there on a permanent basis.
But you didn't specify humans, you said life. And if I recall correctly, there are bacteria that can live at -48 C. Don't hange the goalposts now.
God's wisdom is knowing the difference between what is necessary and what is not with the ingredients He has provided.
And since we don't know that, or if we do, seem to disagree on what the "necessary" entails, your god failed.
Since you think you have better wisdom than God's, all the best in using it.
Thank you, I will.
As for %s, you got me. I meant greater in the smaller direction.
"Greater in the smaller direction"? What does that even mean. Well, ok, you admitted you were wrong. Thank you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 261 by John 10:10, posted 02-23-2011 3:27 PM John 10:10 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 269 by NoNukes, posted 02-23-2011 6:17 PM Huntard has replied

  
Huntard
Member (Idle past 2295 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 268 of 357 (606081)
02-23-2011 6:00 PM
Reply to: Message 264 by frako
02-23-2011 4:05 PM


Re: A "just right" universe is our universe.
frako writes:
Sure tough Erth is more JUST right for FISH then man 70% of the world surface is watter guess he loves fish more then man.
And it's even more right for bacteria, which are found literally everywhere.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 264 by frako, posted 02-23-2011 4:05 PM frako has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 269 of 357 (606087)
02-23-2011 6:17 PM
Reply to: Message 267 by Huntard
02-23-2011 5:54 PM


Re: A "just right" universe is our universe.
Huntard writes:
John 10:10 writes:
I don't know where you learned science, but both orbit around the sun and tilt combined produce the earth's seasons.
I learned it from the internet (mostly this site), which apparently you didn't. Because no, the orbit doesn't come into play at all.
The earth's motion in its orbit does produce the seasons. The earth's axis does not change direction on a yearly basis. Instead we have winter in the northern hemisphere when the earth is in a certain portion of its orbit.
The earth's orbit is nearly circular, and the earh's eccentricity plays essentially no role in determining the seasons. As has been pointed out the earth is at perihelion in early January.
J10:10 writes:
As for %s, you got me. I meant greater in the smaller direction.
Sigh. Of course that negates the actual point John 10:10 tried to make.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 267 by Huntard, posted 02-23-2011 5:54 PM Huntard has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 271 by Huntard, posted 02-23-2011 6:28 PM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 270 of 357 (606088)
02-23-2011 6:20 PM
Reply to: Message 264 by frako
02-23-2011 4:05 PM


Re: A "just right" universe is our universe.
frako writes:
Sure tough Erth is more JUST right for FISH then man 70% of the world surface is watter guess he loves fish more then man.
Then the earth is just right for life on land to evolve from sea life?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 264 by frako, posted 02-23-2011 4:05 PM frako has not replied

  
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