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Author Topic:   Living According to Christ: Is it Reasonable?
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 106 of 122 (606446)
02-25-2011 1:38 PM


Derailment...
Are we going to get back to addressing the topic of the thread, or just continue on with the religion wars?

Jon


Check out Apollo's Temple!
Ignorance is temporary; you should be able to overcome it. - nwr

Replies to this message:
 Message 108 by Straggler, posted 02-25-2011 1:44 PM Jon has not yet responded

Theodoric
Member
Posts: 5954
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 107 of 122 (606448)
02-25-2011 1:39 PM
Reply to: Message 103 by jaywill
02-25-2011 1:15 PM


Re: Pascals Wager
Classic jaywill

No attempt to address my post at all.

Here comes another bible thumper to join to glut of fundies overruning EvC Forum.

Funny how I never said anything about fundies overrunning EVC. You made that up. Isn't bearing false witness against your religion? Am I not to point out your misrepresentations. Can you show that any atheist has a "need to disbelieve"? Or do you stand by your fundie wordplay?

You give no reason not to be skeptical, then claim christian persecution complex whenever anyone doesn't buy your version of whatever you believe. If you do not want to hear from the skeptics why are you here?

OFF TOPIC - Please Do Not Respond to this message by continuing in this vein.
AdminPD

Edited by Theodoric, : No reason given.

Edited by Theodoric, : Spelling and punctuation

Edited by AdminPD, : Warning


Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
This message is a reply to:
 Message 103 by jaywill, posted 02-25-2011 1:15 PM jaywill has not yet responded

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10284
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 108 of 122 (606450)
02-25-2011 1:44 PM
Reply to: Message 106 by Jon
02-25-2011 1:38 PM


Re: Derailment...
Is Jaywill's evident need to believe in Christ sufficient basis upon which to describe his belief in Christ as reasonable?

Because that is what the whole thing boils down to.

OFF TOPIC - Please Do Not Respond to this message by continuing in this vein.
AdminPD

Edited by Straggler, : No reason given.

Edited by AdminPD, : Warning


This message is a reply to:
 Message 106 by Jon, posted 02-25-2011 1:38 PM Jon has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 109 by AdminPD, posted 02-25-2011 3:13 PM Straggler has not yet responded

AdminPD
Inactive Administrator


Message 109 of 122 (606473)
02-25-2011 3:13 PM
Reply to: Message 108 by Straggler
02-25-2011 1:44 PM


Stick To The Topic
Participants:

Please reread Message 1. The topic is looking specifically at the teachings of the New Testament.

Please refrain from responding to posts that do not address the topic.

Please direct any comments concerning this Administrative msg to the General Discussion Of Moderation Procedures (aka 'The Whine List') thread.

Thank you
AdminPD Purple

Edited by AdminPD, : Typo


This message is a reply to:
 Message 108 by Straggler, posted 02-25-2011 1:44 PM Straggler has not yet responded

Phage0070
Inactive Member


Message 110 of 122 (606592)
02-26-2011 7:31 PM
Reply to: Message 88 by jaywill
02-24-2011 11:22 AM


Re: Pascals Wager
jaywill writes:

The Christian has the Holy Spirit Who confirms so much of what one reads in the Bible that he has confidence he is on the right track to believe.

Since when did "I feel like I'm right" become an even halfway valid justification for something like this?

jaywill writes:

I was not there when 500 disciples at one time witnessed the resurrected Jesus, as Paul reported (1 Cor. 15:6). And he wrote that most of them were alive at that time. So they could have been available to the Corinthain audience to point out Paul's fraud had Paul been lying. That's why he wrote about the 500 eyewitnesses.

Ok, a few issues here. Citing 500 unnamed witnesses of which there is no other record is no evidence at all. How many people witnessed Hercules's feats of strength?

For another thing, travel was fairly difficult in that time. If the Corinthians were given the claim "500 people saw this" not only don't they have a single name to go off of, but also may not have even been able to get to the area in question. At any rate, the Corinthians didn't really seem to have recorded any verification of the claim.

jaywill writes:

I don't believe either Jesus Christ or His apostles were scam artists.

I gathered, good for you. So what?

jaywill writes:

Whatever "version" it is it is believable. I don't think man would make up such a character as Jesus Christ even if he were able to imagine such a person, which I don't believe we are able.

Nobody cares if you think its believable. Second, you are apparently a colossal idiot because you don't think humans are capable of making up a character such as Jesus Christ.

You have to be shitting me.

jaywill writes:

A. God became real to me when I called upon the name of Jesus. This strong experience leads me to believe I am on the right track.

Good for you. The same or similar could be said for the devotees of any other religion as well. We can chalk this up to more of the meaningless statements in your ridiculously long post.

jaywill writes:

It seems obvious that the writers of the Gospels are writing with the purpose to convince the reader to believe what is being written. But they do not beg. It is very concise and matter of fact. So it is propoganda (of the true kind).

Just because its obvious they are writing to convince doesn't make it true, or propaganda. If you weren't assuming that it did then thats apparently a completely unjustified claim. Either way I don't know what you were trying to do there.

jaywill writes:

C. S. Lewis was an expert liturary critic. Lewis said the NT did not at all read like myth.

C.S.Lewis was biased, and the majority of literary critics don't agree. Furthermore appeals to authority don't make sense here, even if the style of writing at all indicated the truth of the claims written about which it does not.

jaywill writes:

God can be contacted today.

Prove it.

jaywill writes:

I'm biased. Without the death and resurrection of Jesus, I have no hope.

Yes you are, apparently your world view prevents you from examining this subject with the appropriate rigor.

jaywill writes:

Fortunately, I'm sure my bias is rooted in what is real. And alternative explanations of the life of Jesus and the rise and spread of the Christian faith appear largely nonsensical to me.

Your surety of your conclusion or your ability to understand alternative explanations are only relevant as factors which hinder your analysis of the topic.

As for the rise and spread of the Christian faith, it appears to be very similar to the rise and spread of other religions. I would be curious about your ability to understand them.

jaywill writes:

I don't think the 500 witnesses of the resurrected Jesus could all at the same time have this "extrasensary revelation" together. That's harder to believe then the straight forward Gospel report.

Which ones were those? The unnamed, unaccounted for 500 that nobody other than the author ever interviewed?

There were 1,000 witnesses the other day that saw Jesus appear and explain that he was never crucified or resurrected. This happened somewhere in China, and no I am not telling you any names. Also, there are no independent records and you can't contact me for clarification. Now its *apparently* 2 to 1 in my favor.

jaywill writes:

These are all treasures that I have received because of believing in Jesus Christ.

Prove it.

It seems a rather odd request until you realize that everything you just listed is completely in your head. Prove you didn't just imagine those things by being told about a fictional being that never existed, and about the magical stuff that being will never actually do.

jaywill writes:

If I drop my faith in Jesus Christ (if I possibly could) and pick up your philosophy, what does your philosophy offer me in terms of these things?

And here we have it; you are holding on to your beliefs not because you have any particular confidence that they are true, but because you don't have an attractive alternative. As if comfort and appeal was the determining factor of something being true or not.

I'm not pitching a philosophy. I'm saying your beliefs about events and beings are untrue, and thus your philosophy is unjustified.

jaywill writes:

But in my case the witness within my being that Jesus was alive was very substantial.

I'm sure your imagination has been very active, and you feel very strongly about things. I don't care, that doesn't make things true.

jaywill writes:

You know, in Exodus, God appeared in a phenomenon of loud noise and fire dramatically for about 40 days. Curiously, it eventually didn't stop the Hebrews from wanting to make a golden calf and march back into Egypt "the iron furnace" of oppression.

About that.. its interesting there is no archaeological evidence to suggest those people went marching around that area at all, or Egyptian records of their coming or going despite their otherwise detailed border traffic records. Let me guess; a huge Egyptian cover up and these hordes of people didn't leave a trace?

jaywill writes:

It seems insane that Calvary should have occured in the first place if so much visible proof of the love of God had been manifested in Jesus.

And so for the sake of plausibility what can we conclude?

You almost forgot which side you are supposed to be biased toward ehh?

jaywill writes:

So I would get salvation first and then take my problems of eternal damnation to God.

Interesting that you would admit to worshiping what may well turn out to be an evil god just for the sake of mercenary gain. Other more noble people might be willing to take a moral stand despite the sacrifice.

jaywill writes:

You even agree that you SHOULD do this or that. But somehow you do not have the power to pull it off and you often do what you do not agree with.

I aspire to be greater than I am. Thats something to be respected.

On the other hand you suggest I was created sick and commanded to be well. That I am to be damned for a failing I have no ability to rectify, or part in causing. How is that moral? Thats like building a house with no frame and then cursing it when it falls down. Who is really at fault?

jaywill writes:

Triviality by association is not impressive to me.

My point there highlighted how the sincerity of a writing style is no at all indicative of the truth of the statement written. You seem to have completely missed the point.

jaywill writes:

God is not mocked.

You don't frighten me Deific pig dogs! Go and boil your bottoms son of a silly person! I blow my nose at you so called King of Kings, you and all your silly religious Knnniggits! Thbbbttt!

(Paraphrased from The Quest for the Holy Grail, and adapted for godly mocking.)

Your god is mocked aplenty, don't say such ridiculous things if you don't want to be called on them.

jaywill writes:

It does prove that they believed that He had risen from the dead. That is an important historical fact.

No, it may be a historical fact that they died (everyone did) but their reasons or loyalty are hardly fact. Surely you can conceive of the core group of followers being rounded up and executed regardless of their recanting and then the remaining followers recording them as stalwart to their deaths.

jaywill writes:

That there are other strong beliefs is not sufficient proof that the New Testament cannot be true.

Thats not the way things go. You have to have a good reason to think something is true; you don't assume that something is true until proven false.

The fact that there are strong beliefs other than in the New Testament proves that strong belief isn't something that you can use as evidence for your position. But it seems as if thats all you have to offer.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 88 by jaywill, posted 02-24-2011 11:22 AM jaywill has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 111 by jaywill, posted 02-28-2011 10:09 AM Phage0070 has not yet responded
 Message 115 by jaywill, posted 02-28-2011 11:49 AM Phage0070 has responded

jaywill
Member (Idle past 20 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 111 of 122 (606766)
02-28-2011 10:09 AM
Reply to: Message 110 by Phage0070
02-26-2011 7:31 PM


Re: Pascals Wager
Since when did "I feel like I'm right" become an even halfway valid justification for something like this?

This Forum is under the heading of Faith and Belief.

1.) First off though faith and belief are rather subjective things that does not mean that faith and belief must always be about things which are not true or not realities.

There is a class of things which though experienced through faith and belief are nonetheless realitities. The Triune God is definitely in that class.

2.) The activity of the Holy Spirit is not at all trivial or unconsequential in the New Testament.

If you ask me "Since when" I would ask you do you read the Bible? Especially since the resurrection of Christ the activity within the receiver of Christ, of the Holy Spirit is intrinsically central to the experience of God and reality.

Maybe you're missing something. Possible ? John records very carefully the important questions that Christ's disciples ask of Him before His redemptive acts, and His replies:

"Judas, not Isacariot, said to HIm, Lord, and what has happened that You are to manifest Yourself to us and not to the world ?

Jesus answered and said to him, If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word, and My Father witll love him, and We will come to him and make an abode with him." (John 14:23)

The question concerns what has occured that will allow Jesus manifest Himself, as He said, to His followers, apart from the world. The answer of Jesus is that, to those who love Him, He and His Father will come to them and make an abode within them.

This answer of Christ is somewhat of a repetition of His words in verse 21 right before the question is asked:

"He who has My commandments and keeps them, he is the one who loves Me; and he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and will manifest Myself to him." (v.21)

These are not idle words. They are very significant. God as the Holy Spirit comes into the lovers of Jesus and manifests Jesus to them. He does this by making a living abode within them. He does not come to the world in general, who are considered the unbelieving outsiders. When they come to believe and receive Jesus they become among those "called out" of the world, the EKKLESIA, within whom the Father and the Son have come to abide in them and manifest Christ to them.

So in answer to the question "Since when" is the Holy Spirit important to any of this relevancy ? I would say, at least since Christ taught His disciples in John 14 just before His death and resurrection.


jaywill writes:
I was not there when 500 disciples at one time witnessed the resurrected Jesus, as Paul reported (1 Cor. 15:6). And he wrote that most of them were alive at that time. So they could have been available to the Corinthain audience to point out Paul's fraud had Paul been lying. That's why he wrote about the 500 eyewitnesses.

Ok, a few issues here. Citing 500 unnamed witnesses of which there is no other record is no evidence at all. How many people witnessed Hercules's feats of strength?

Do you have a parellel document of a genuine ancient letter arguing with a congregation that most of 500 people living at that time were eyewitnesses to something Hercules did?

If so, please quote it. And I will consider your comparison. I think you are comparing apples to organges.

And asking for the names of the 500 may simply be perpetually demanding the goal post be moved. You DO have the names of some witnesses provided. And they are not mythical figures but historical people.

I am no expert on Hercules. I'm happy to learn something about Hercules. But I don't feel I have to run off and become an expert on Greek Mythology, Egyptian Mythology, Norse Mythology, Roman Mythology, in order to convince myself of the validity of what happened to me the night I called upon the name of Jesus and met God.

See Dr. Gary Habermas on YouTube. He knows a lot about comparing the Christian Gospel to ancient mythology. He might be able to help you in these comparisons.

Trying to stay on subject here. The advent of Greek mythology on Hercules has not made the New Testament Gospel irrelevant in modern times, IMO.


For another thing, travel was fairly difficult in that time. If the Corinthians were given the claim "500 people saw this" not only don't they have a single name to go off of, but also may not have even been able to get to the area in question. At any rate, the Corinthians didn't really seem to have recorded any verification of the claim.

It is unlikly that Paul would have gone out on a limb with a lie, had he known that his claim could be easily proved wrong. What I hear you saying is that "Well, it could NOT easily be proved wrong."

I'll muse on it a bit. But given the character of Paul I think you are asking me to believe in more of a conspiracy theory then is realistic. In essence you want me to believe an elaborate trickery scam is being perpetrated by Paul.

This kind of suspicion knows no limits. All you're really demonstrating to me is that you have an capacity to raise somewhat plausible sounding doubts which knows no end.

Off line, I'll explore your problem a little. Maybe you can think about WHY Paul would want to hoodwink the Corinthian audience with a phony verification challenge as you imagine.

What is it he is going to gain by this? Was he going to gain a best selling book? Was it going to secure for him a Nobel Prize, a position on the Sanhedrin, a Popeship in Catholicism ? Was this going to put more money in his pocket, or add land to his possession ? Would this stop the Jews from hounding him and whipping him ? Would lying in this way make his enemies stop persecuting him from town to town ?

What is the tangible benefit to Paul in concocting a bogus challenge to the well established orthodoxy which he received from others, that Jesus had appeared alive after His entombment ?


jaywill writes:
I don't believe either Jesus Christ or His apostles were scam artists.

I gathered, good for you. So what?

So what? So, I think you are probably telling me more about yourself then about Jesus and the apostles.

You know the person most scare that someone will pick his own pocket, is the pickpocket. He knows how easy it is to do it.

The person most sacred of being robbed is the one who knows how easy it is to steal. Because he knows he can do it, he's cautious that it will be done to him.

I think your suspicions of conspiracy in the Gospel of Christ more reflect your own ability to munipulate people to an opinion.

"As face answers to face in water, so the mind of a man reflects the man."

We need God's help with our minds ever since the fall of man.


jaywill writes:
Whatever "version" it is it is believable. I don't think man would make up such a character as Jesus Christ even if he were able to imagine such a person, which I don't believe we are able.

Nobody cares if you think its believable.

How do you know that? Are you presumming to speak for the whole world ?


Second, you are apparently a colossal idiot because you don't think humans are capable of making up a character such as Jesus Christ.

No I do not think fallen sinners like you and I could imagine a Person like Jesus.

Now we might be able to SELECT this or that saying and imagine such. We might be able to SELECT this or that act and imagine something.

But by and large as a TOTAL package, including ALL His deeds and words, I don't think man could invent such a Person. And if someone did, we better find out who and get his other stories. Such an imagination must be from the wisest person ever living.

That is one heck of a novel, whoever created Jesus.

Also, I don't believe the whole Trinity - the Triune God would be something that religious people would invent. There are too many problems with trying to figure out how the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit could be God and there only be ONE God.

Man would never propose something so problemactic as a theological belief as the Trinity.

But I can see someone imaginining Allah, perhaps. But not the Triune God - Father - Son - Holy Spirit.


You have to be shitting me.


jaywill writes:
A. God became real to me when I called upon the name of Jesus. This strong experience leads me to believe I am on the right track.

Good for you. The same or similar could be said for the devotees of any other religion as well. We can chalk this up to more of the meaningless statements in your ridiculously long post.

So I will repeat it again. That there is a Gospel of Christ does not have to mean that no other strong beliefs have ever existed.

I would ask you to gather up your Moslem friends and ask them a simple question. "Do you know God ?" I think you will find many strong beliefs, true. But I don't think many will say to you "Yes sie, I now know God."

This is what I think you'll get. They'll tell you that they know about God. They will tell you that they know how often to pray. They will tell you they know how to give alms, how to fast, what days are holy, what position to be in when you pray, how often to read the Quran, how to recite prayers, how to go to Mecca, etc. etc. etc.

I think you will get a lot of responses about religious matters. But when it comes right down to your REAL question ' "Do You Know God ?" I think eventually they will admit that they do NOT KNOW God Himself. And they probably will have good reasons to say that no one knows God.

You check me out on this. Go ask ten Moslems if they KNOW GOD ... not ABOUT God, but KNOW GOD.

Then go ask some practicioners of the Jewish faith the same thing.

You see, I have met God. I know God. I am not saying I know God as I should. But I can say I remember NOT knowing God and I remember when God came into my life as a living Person.

The normal Christian life is about knowing God, not just knowing ABOUT God.


jaywill writes:
It seems obvious that the writers of the Gospels are writing with the purpose to convince the reader to believe what is being written. But they do not beg. It is very concise and matter of fact. So it is propoganda (of the true kind).

Just because its obvious they are writing to convince doesn't make it true, or propaganda. If you weren't assuming that it did then thats apparently a completely unjustified claim. Either way I don't know what you were trying to do there.

I am not talking about proof as in a mathematical proof or scientific formula. You have no rigorous PROOF to publish proving that there is no God.

I am talking about indications, external and internal, which can encourage a man that he is on the right track to believe in Jesus the Son of God.

I know that you can say "But that doesn't prove, but that doesn't prove" rom now until the end of your life.

You will not be put to shame if you believe in Jesus Christ. You will not be put to shame to trust the Gospel of Jesus.


jaywill writes:
C. S. Lewis was an expert liturary critic. Lewis said the NT did not at all read like myth.

C.S.Lewis was biased, and the majority of literary critics don't agree. Furthermore appeals to authority don't make sense here, even if the style of writing at all indicated the truth of the claims written about which it does not.

C.S. Lewis, as a former atheist probably had tougher challenges to Christians then you have.

And complaining about appeals to authority just allows you to appeal to your own.


jaywill writes:
God can be contacted today.

Prove it.

Back again to Proof. I don't feel that I have to prove it. I think I can give you good indications that you are on the right track of truth to believe in the Son of God.

If your reply is "But you cannot FORCE me to believe in your Jesus" you are correct. I cannot FORCE you and niether will God FORCE you.

On the other hand, you certainly have not PROVED to me that it is not relevant to belief in Jesus Christ in 2011. And I have seen nothing suggesting that the Gospel of Jesus is no longer applicable to man in 2011 AD.

That seems to have been the purpose of the Discussion from the skeptic's point of view.


jaywill writes:
I'm biased. Without the death and resurrection of Jesus, I have no hope.

Yes you are, apparently your world view prevents you from examining this subject with the appropriate rigor.

Maybe so. But all of that neither PROVES that Jesus is not the Son of God.

Genetic fallacy. I am also BIASED about not jumping out the window of a five story building. Maybe I have not "rigorously" enough examined the law of gravity.

I think I have enough information on that to know not to jump out of the window of a five story building, even with my bias.

Straggler, look. Eventually, we all have to put our trust in someone or in something.

Jesus is unusual in that He comes right out from the beginning and tells you up front that the relationship is a matter of TRUST, Faith, Belief. But we all will eventually trust someone.

I recommend Jesus Christ as really great for one to put trust in.
You will not be put to shame.

jaywill writes:
Fortunately, I'm sure my bias is rooted in what is real. And alternative explanations of the life of Jesus and the rise and spread of the Christian faith appear largely nonsensical to me.

"Largly" you say. Then what part NOT of this "largly" portion seems to make some sense to you ?


Your surety of your conclusion or your ability to understand alternative explanations are only relevant as factors which hinder your analysis of the topic.

I considered a number of proposals saying "Look, HERE is why following Jesus is no longer relevant today."

I saw those reasons. I seriously considered them. I thought on them. I examined them. And my response was that none of them seemed sufficient as reasons not to follow the Lord Jesus in 2011.

Some one said "But you'll have to give your riches away if you're a real disciple." Then it was said "But, you'll have to hate mom and dad." Then it was said "You'll have to drop your day job to follow Jesus."

I did consider the subject related rationals for why following Jesus is no longer a plausible venture in 2011 AD. I don't think ANY of the complaints were perculiar to this age which would NOT have been just as peculiar 2000 years ago.

Did they love mom and dad less? Were they less attached to material possessions ? I don't think so. But examining the complaints in a fuller context of the New Testament teaching and example, I found none of those reasons as reasons to dismiss discipleship by Christ to be no longer relevant today.

We went off on a number of tangents and got flagged for leaving the discussion. Some of those maybe could be explored more on another thread.


As for the rise and spread of the Christian faith, it appears to be very similar to the rise and spread of other religions. I would be curious about your ability to understand them.

Well, on another thread we could talk about Islam and Bahai. Maybe we could talk about the rise and spread of other faiths.

Islam today is a fast spreading religion. HOWEVER, Islam is an enforced religion. In a number of countries, having been brought up a Moslem, getting OUT of it is about as easy as getting out of the Mafia.

So Islam is a spreading and enforced FORCED religion. I think in Indonesia you may have to appear before a tribunal of three judges to explain that you want to leave Islam. Other places you can be killed for being baptized.

So when we talk about other "spreading" and rising religions, let's make sure we are talking apples and apples.

I will leave off other responses for latter.
Have a good day.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 110 by Phage0070, posted 02-26-2011 7:31 PM Phage0070 has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 112 by Straggler, posted 02-28-2011 10:14 AM jaywill has responded

Straggler
Member
Posts: 10284
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 112 of 122 (606767)
02-28-2011 10:14 AM
Reply to: Message 111 by jaywill
02-28-2011 10:09 AM


Re: Pascals Wager
Phage writes:

The fact that there are strong beliefs other than in the New Testament proves that strong belief isn't something that you can use as evidence for your position. But it seems as if thats all you have to offer.

Jaywill writes:

First off though faith and belief are rather subjective things that does not mean that faith and belief must always be about things which are not true or not realities.

There is a class of things which though experienced through faith and belief are nonetheless realitities. The Triune God is definitely in that class.

You don't actually seem to be disagreeing with Phage's conclusion here?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 111 by jaywill, posted 02-28-2011 10:09 AM jaywill has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 113 by jaywill, posted 02-28-2011 10:25 AM Straggler has responded

jaywill
Member (Idle past 20 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 113 of 122 (606769)
02-28-2011 10:25 AM
Reply to: Message 112 by Straggler
02-28-2011 10:14 AM


Re: Pascals Wager
It could be, as for instance John Frame (Christian philosopher) suggests, that ANY world view of any kind utilizes circular reasoning.

I know some of my reasoning may be circular. I don't feel too bad about it beause God is the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.

We are out from God and we must find our destiny in God or in that willed and related to God's plan.

So, I admit, that I probably do have some circular reasoning going on.

I think my comment about Faith and Belief were essentially - "Just because Belief is involved, do not assume Belief cannot have Truth as its object."

Look at the matter another way. I think one and possibly the most powerful personality that has ever lived is that of the man Jesus Christ.

How can we dispute that Jesus had a personality which had impact on human history ?

Now this Person Jesus, spoke very much about faith. I think we should listen.

Jesus attributed nearly everything of what He did to "faith". I think, from this most powerful of personalities, we should listen and learn something about faith in what He had faith in.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 112 by Straggler, posted 02-28-2011 10:14 AM Straggler has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 114 by Straggler, posted 02-28-2011 10:47 AM jaywill has not yet responded

Straggler
Member
Posts: 10284
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 114 of 122 (606776)
02-28-2011 10:47 AM
Reply to: Message 113 by jaywill
02-28-2011 10:25 AM


Re: Pascals Wager
aywill writes:

It could be, as for instance John Frame (Christian philosopher) suggests, that ANY world view of any kind utilizes circular reasoning.

I'm sure he does. Christian philosophers are keen on suggesting that all forms of knowledge are equally as absurd as the foundations of the beliefs they are attempting to justify.

Jaywill writes:

I know some of my reasoning may be circular. I don't feel too bad about it because God is the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.

Anyone could apply exactly the same arguments to justify absolute faith in anything couldn't they?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 113 by jaywill, posted 02-28-2011 10:25 AM jaywill has not yet responded

jaywill
Member (Idle past 20 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 115 of 122 (606789)
02-28-2011 11:49 AM
Reply to: Message 110 by Phage0070
02-26-2011 7:31 PM


Re: Pascals Wager
There were 1,000 witnesses the other day that saw Jesus appear and explain that he was never crucified or resurrected.

Sounds like something you are just making up off the top of your head. So its easy for you to say.

Maybe a better argument would have been to point to some multitude claiming to have seen tears coming from a statue of Mary or some such thing.

If I was in your position, that might be something I would counter with.


This happened somewhere in China, and no I am not telling you any names. Also, there are no independent records and you can't contact me for clarification. Now its *apparently* 2 to 1 in my favor.

I can't tell whether you're spoofing or are serious.


jaywill writes:
These are all treasures that I have received because of believing in Jesus Christ.

Prove it.

Back to proof again ?

Did you prove that it is no longer relevant to be a follower of Christ in 2011 AD ?

Got a formula ? Got "proof"?

I got another idea, prove to me that the man you call your father is really your biological father. And I'll show you that I can raise objections to your "proof" forever.


It seems a rather odd request until you realize that everything you just listed is completely in your head. Prove you didn't just imagine those things by being told about a fictional being that never existed, and about the magical stuff that being will never actually do.

This is the repetitive skeptic approach. This is the posture of just endlessly asking "Well, how do you know that? How do you know that? How then do you know that? How do you know that? But how do you know that?"

I don't count the repetitive skeptic as a participant in a conversation. It is just a posture.


jaywill writes:
If I drop my faith in Jesus Christ (if I possibly could) and pick up your philosophy, what does your philosophy offer me in terms of these things?

And here we have it; you are holding on to your beliefs not because you have any particular confidence that they are true, but because you don't have an attractive alternative. As if comfort and appeal was the determining factor of something being true or not.

I expected evasion. And I got it.

Moving on then.


I'm not pitching a philosophy. I'm saying your beliefs about events and beings are untrue, and thus your philosophy is unjustified.

Hey, that's not what the Bible says.

Where did you come from ?
Why are you here ?

Instead of a grumbling evasion, propose an answer.
If not, excuse me for wanting to listen to Jesus.


jaywill writes:
But in my case the witness within my being that Jesus was alive was very substantial.

I'm sure your imagination has been very active, and you feel very strongly about things. I don't care, that doesn't make things true.

That's right. Doen't make it true just because I have a strong belief.


jaywill writes:
You know, in Exodus, God appeared in a phenomenon of loud noise and fire dramatically for about 40 days. Curiously, it eventually didn't stop the Hebrews from wanting to make a golden calf and march back into Egypt "the iron furnace" of oppression.

About that.. its interesting there is no archaeological evidence to suggest those people went marching around that area at all, or Egyptian records of their coming or going despite their otherwise detailed border traffic records. Let me guess; a huge Egyptian cover up and these hordes of people didn't leave a trace?

I haven't gotten into the archeaology of this much.

I do know from hearing secular lectures on ancient Egypt that Egyptian pharoahs loathed to leave any historical records about things which were embarressments to them.

In fact on their temple walls they would sometimes deface and change the hieroghlyphics to say something which put them in a favorable light. They were very self conscious about their legacy.

We should expect that something as humiliating as the Hebrew Exodus and ten plagues at the hands of Moses, would be wiped out of thier self advertizing records. They always sought to go down in history are the greatest kings.

But I don't know a lot about the archeaology of the Exodus. Other archeaological finds have confirmed the Bible. There is quite a lot there in those 66 books.

Even if you were right absence of evidence is not proof of absence of the event. And you at best would only have one down and 500 to go.

Absence of proof is not proof of absence.

Lastly, the existence of the nation of Israel and the Jews themselves would require some explanation. Their self realization of thier existence demonstrates that SOMETHING dramatic happened back there as orgins of Passover and Mosiac laws.

The three Abrahamic faiths , Judiasm, Islam, Christianity, argue that someone named Abraham probably really lived. It is not unrealistic to believe that this person had some ecounter with God which led to such a strong legacy.


jaywill writes:
It seems insane that Calvary should have occured in the first place if so much visible proof of the love of God had been manifested in Jesus.

And so for the sake of plausibility what can we conclude?

You almost forgot which side you are supposed to be biased toward ehh?

I don't follow this crack too well.


jaywill writes:
So I would get salvation first and then take my problems of eternal damnation to God.

Interesting that you would admit to worshiping what may well turn out to be an evil god just for the sake of mercenary gain. Other more noble people might be willing to take a moral stand despite the sacrifice.

I do not expect a more noble person to be so resistant to admitting that they are sinners.

When I encounter a person who cannot bring himself to realize that he is a sinner, I do not count him as more noble.

I count a noble person to realize that they have had many serious moral failures in life. Thier nobility starts with a realistic self assessment as opposed to the egotism of self perfection.


jaywill writes:
You even agree that you SHOULD do this or that. But somehow you do not have the power to pull it off and you often do what you do not agree with.

I aspire to be greater than I am. Thats something to be respected.

I also desire to be better then I am.

Probably the difference is that I only regard one Peson as Great, the Son of God. Any "greatness" I may have is based only on how close I am to the Great One.

On the other hand you suggest I was created sick and commanded to be well.

No no. You and I were indeed born "sick". The Command to do well was only to PROVE to our proud arrogant selves that we were indeed sick.

God always knew we were sick. We didn't believe it. So God said "You're not sick? Okay here, keep this law."

A good portion of the Old Testament was only to prove to mankind himself that he is in touble and spiritually sick. Then a Physician, a Healer, a Savior is introduced and we are commanded to believe into Him.


That I am to be damned for a failing I have no ability to rectify, or part in causing. How is that moral? Thats like building a house with no frame and then cursing it when it falls down. Who is really at fault?

No. no. How about you take the New Testament tonight and read through the first saym five chapters of the book of Romans.

That is the basic outlay of Christian doctrine of Justification by Faith.

I am not saying that the entire book of Romans is on Justification by Faith. I am not saying the entire New Testament has only one subject - Justification by Faith. Don't misunderstand.

I am saying that our being born sinners, encapable of justifying ourselves according to God's standard of righteousness, has its wonderful remedy in the truth of Justification by Faith.

You are saved eternally because your name is written in the book of life of the Lamb. And your name will be written in the book of life for certain, if you believe that Jesus is the Son of God.

This may be a little off subject. But you have to understand - you are saved eternally from damnation not because God just overlooked your sins. You are saved eternally from damnation because you agree with God that God JUDGED your sins, in Christ, on the cross.

In effect the Son of God went into damnation on your behalf.

You are saved eternally not with an unpaid dept which has been overlooked and ignored. You are saved eternally because your dept has been PAID IN FULL in Jesus, on Calvary.

I am going to stop right here for now. Think about it.
No. I mean really think about it.

When you come to Jesus you have the boldness to say "God, whether you like me or your don't like me, you are bound by your own righteous procedure to save me."


jaywill writes:
That there are other strong beliefs is not sufficient proof that the New Testament cannot be true.

Thats not the way things go. You have to have a good reason to think something is true; you don't assume that something is true until proven false.

The fact that there are strong beliefs other than in the New Testament proves that strong belief isn't something that you can use as evidence for your position. But it seems as if thats all you have to offer.

I may have gotten some quoting and isolating confused above.

This is relevant to today as well as it was to 2000 years ago. And when you are cleansed from your sin, you should not have contempt for that fact that you may also FEEL greatly and unexplanably relieved and joyful within.

Don't hold in contempt that there is a certain amount of internal confirmation that you have gotten on the right track to accept Jesus as Lord and Savior.

If is, afterall, something supernatural.

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 110 by Phage0070, posted 02-26-2011 7:31 PM Phage0070 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 116 by Phage0070, posted 02-28-2011 12:03 PM jaywill has responded

Phage0070
Inactive Member


Message 116 of 122 (606792)
02-28-2011 12:03 PM
Reply to: Message 115 by jaywill
02-28-2011 11:49 AM


Re: Pascals Wager
jaywill writes:

Sounds like something you are just making up off the top of your head.

As if letting it marinate for 2000 years is any better.

jaywill writes:

Maybe a better argument would have been to point to some multitude claiming to have seen tears coming from a statue of Mary or some such thing.

I was assuming that you are not a complete moron and have heard of other religions and their religious claims and experiences.

jaywill writes:

Back to proof again ?

Yes, that pesky thing called reality.

jaywill writes:

Did you prove that it is no longer relevant to be a follower of Christ in 2011 AD ?

Oh, its certainly relevant. Having schizophrenia is relevant in 2011 AD. Is that really all we are talking about?

jaywill writes:

I got another idea, prove to me that the man you call your father is really your biological father. And I'll show you that I can raise obections to your "proof" forever.

I don't doubt your ability to generate hypothetical objections. However to equate an event with numerous living witnesses, documentation, photographic proof, biological verification, etc... with something that happens purely within your head is ridiculous. Heck, I will even call it dishonest.

jaywill writes:

I don't count the repetitive skeptic as a participant in a conversation. It is just a posture.

I don't count the repetitive dreamer as a participant in a conversation. Its just a posture.

And thus, SNIP! You are done!

jaywill writes:

--Nothing meaningful--


This message is a reply to:
 Message 115 by jaywill, posted 02-28-2011 11:49 AM jaywill has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 117 by jaywill, posted 02-28-2011 12:37 PM Phage0070 has responded

jaywill
Member (Idle past 20 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 117 of 122 (606805)
02-28-2011 12:37 PM
Reply to: Message 116 by Phage0070
02-28-2011 12:03 PM


Re: Pascals Wager
As if letting it marinate for 2000 years is any better.

The test of time is important.

I mean as one more little skeptic, do you think you'll rid the earth of the Gospel ? Voltaire assured us that when he finished doing his skeptical thing there would be nothing left of the Christian Gospel.

Voltaire gone off to his reward, he's dead. And the gospel of Christ marches triumphantly on in the world.

You gonna do a better job ?


jaywill writes:
Maybe a better argument would have been to point to some multitude claiming to have seen tears coming from a statue of Mary or some such thing.

I was assuming that you are not a complete moron and have heard of other religions and their religious claims and experiences.

I was into Zen Buddhism before I came to Jesus. I know about other religions.

Ad homs are comforting to you ?


jaywill writes:
Back to proof again ?

Yes, that pesky thing called reality.

I don't find the matter of PROVING the the Gospel to be pesky.
I like to tell people the facts. I answer some of thier objections if I can.

I know the old saying "A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still."

Often the demand for proof is a challenge to FORCE someone to change his will to believe what he intends not to believe.

"Prove it" is often another way of saying "Force me".


jaywill writes:
Did you prove that it is no longer relevant to be a follower of Christ in 2011 AD ?

Oh, its certainly relevant. Having schizophrenia is relevant in 2011 AD. Is that really all we are talking about?

It is not schizohrenia to believe in Christ.

Are you an expert in psychology ?


jaywill writes:
I got another idea, prove to me that the man you call your father is really your biological father. And I'll show you that I can raise obections to your "proof" forever.

I don't doubt your ability to generate hypothetical objections.

Sure I could. You get him to tell me, I say he could be lying.
You show me your birth certificate. How do I know it was not forged.

You find the doctors and nurses to vouch for the certificate. How do I know no conspiracy is involved.

You show be a results of a DNA analysis. I say it could be faulty, forged, a mistake, a conspiracy, or the science of DNA analysis still has some problems with it.

Not proof yet.

Maybe you mom lied to your dad.
Maybe the doctor lied.
Maybe the nurses got babies mixed up which were related to you.

Not proof yet buddy?
Prove it!

Were you there? Did you witness it?
How could you. You were only a baby.
So you don't know that your mom and dad are really your parents.

You trust them on it? You think they love you and would not lie to you?

Hmmm. That is something like I feel about Jesus Christ.
But you can't prove it!

However to equate an event with numerous living witnesses, documentation, photographic proof, biological verification, etc... with something that happens purely within your head is ridiculous. Heck, I will even call it dishonest.

All can be questioned dude. All it takes is a rational mind and a person stubburn enough.

Haven't proved it yet.
How do I know that photo is real? Lots of photos have been faked these days. Especially with digital computerized munipulation.

Prove it!


jaywill writes:
I don't count the repetitive skeptic as a participant in a conversation. It is just a posture.

I don't count the repetitive dreamer as a participant in a conversation. Its just a posture.

And thus, SNIP! You are done!

In terms of demonstrating that no one has made a good argument that following Jesus is not relevant today, I think I may have completed that point long ago.

Those were good scriptures for a counter argument though. But they were not good enough.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 116 by Phage0070, posted 02-28-2011 12:03 PM Phage0070 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 118 by Phage0070, posted 02-28-2011 12:43 PM jaywill has responded

Phage0070
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 118 of 122 (606809)
02-28-2011 12:43 PM
Reply to: Message 117 by jaywill
02-28-2011 12:37 PM


Re: Pascals Wager
jaywill writes:

The test of time is important.

I mean as one more little skeptic, do you think you'll rid the earth of the Gospel ?

The Ancient Egyptian religion persisted for more than 3000 years, yet today there are little to no believers.

I have no illusion or goal of ridding the world of Christianity. But don't think your particular superstition is eternal.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 117 by jaywill, posted 02-28-2011 12:37 PM jaywill has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 121 by jaywill, posted 02-28-2011 3:35 PM Phage0070 has not yet responded

Jon
Inactive Member


Message 119 of 122 (606844)
02-28-2011 3:21 PM


Reasonable or Not?
So then you three: is it reasonable to live according to Christ or not? Why?

Jon


Check out Apollo's Temple!
Ignorance is temporary; you should be able to overcome it. - nwr

Replies to this message:
 Message 120 by fearandloathing, posted 02-28-2011 3:32 PM Jon has not yet responded

fearandloathing
Member (Idle past 2224 days)
Posts: 990
From: Burlington, NC, USA
Joined: 02-24-2011


Message 120 of 122 (606845)
02-28-2011 3:32 PM
Reply to: Message 119 by Jon
02-28-2011 3:21 PM


Re: Reasonable or Not?
Jon writes:

So then you three: is it reasonable to live according to Christ or not? Why?

Jon

Is it reasonable for who? I would say it only applies to Christians because the rest of the world will tell you no its not or ask you who cares. Now some missionaries come closer than most. But most Christians choose a different path and choose not to live the way Jesus wanted word for word, they pick and choose what they feel is relevant. That in-itself answers your question. Preacher at my dads church makes over 100k....is that living like Jesus wanted??


This message is a reply to:
 Message 119 by Jon, posted 02-28-2011 3:21 PM Jon has not yet responded

  
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