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Author Topic:   Problems with evolution? Submit your questions.
havoc
Member (Idle past 3137 days)
Posts: 89
Joined: 03-01-2011


Message 571 of 752 (606955)
03-01-2011 9:52 AM
Reply to: Message 569 by RAZD
03-01-2011 9:21 AM


Re: Cows
What is "something else?" - what do you mean here,

Do you mean another variety (among the already evolved vast number of existing varieties) of cow, where one variety is visibly different from another?

Do you mean another species of bovine?

I mean something other than a cow. Like a dino then a bird. There are limits on selection. A cow will always produce a cow, a dion a dino a bird a bird an ape an ape and a human a human. you can get tall ones short ones hary ones bald ones fast and slow ones but they will allways remain what they came from.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 569 by RAZD, posted 03-01-2011 9:21 AM RAZD has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 572 by jar, posted 03-01-2011 10:00 AM havoc has responded
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jar
Member
Posts: 32019
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 572 of 752 (606957)
03-01-2011 10:00 AM
Reply to: Message 571 by havoc
03-01-2011 9:52 AM


Re: Cows
havoc writes:

What is "something else?" - what do you mean here,

Do you mean another variety (among the already evolved vast number of existing varieties) of cow, where one variety is visibly different from another?

Do you mean another species of bovine?

I mean something other than a cow. Like a dino then a bird. There are limits on selection. A cow will always produce a cow, a dion a dino a bird a bird an ape an ape and a human a human. you can get tall ones short ones hary ones bald ones fast and slow ones but they will allways remain what they came from.

Birds seem to still be dinos, just one of the species of dinos. Humans seem to still be primates, just one of the species of primates.

Kingdom: Animalia
Phylum: Chordata
Class: Mammalia
Order: Primates
Family: Hominidae
Genus: Homo
Species: H. sapiens
Subspecies: H. s. sapiens


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 571 by havoc, posted 03-01-2011 9:52 AM havoc has responded

Replies to this message:
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RAZD
Member
Posts: 20469
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 3.6


Message 573 of 752 (606959)
03-01-2011 10:03 AM
Reply to: Message 570 by havoc
03-01-2011 9:42 AM


Re: Cows
Hi again havoc,

But for creating "new" information mutation is the only choice, correct?

For creating different "information," and compared to what existed before it would be "new" ...

... of course this also depends on what is meant by "information" now.

I cant think of any conceivable evidence that ...

That would be due to the fact that evolution is massively tested and no contradictory evidence has been found.

... darwinists ...

We are not "darwinists" -- we are evolutionary biologists, amateur and professional, that understand that evolution has progressed a lot since Darwin and that his theory of common descent and natural selection is but the beginning of the science of evolution.

The field of evolutionary biology studies the application of all the processes and elements of evolution and how the theory of evolution applies.

... would not just simply say "well now we know that evolution can do this".

No, science does not just say things and expect you to believe them -- that would be dogma -- instead science relies on objective empirical evidence to show that it happens.

That is why you need evidence that {X} cannot be explained by evolutionary processes.

Note that science does not prove theories, rather it tests them to see if they can be falsified. People - including scientists - have tried to falsify evolution for over 150 years with no success yet.

In science theories are the best explanations for the known evidence, and every new test either adds to the evidence that is explained, or it invalidates the theory, which then needs to be revised to include the new evidence. This is how science works to increase knowledge of how things work.

How does this not fit with the popular darwinian evolution belief?

Because science is based first on evidence, then on the hypothesis proposed to explain the evidence, then on testing the hypothesis to see if it can be falsified, and finally the tested and unfalsified hypothesis emerges as a theory to explain all the known evidence.

That is not belief, it is an accumulation of facts and proposed explanations that are based on the scientific method.

Any theory can be falsified, and as long as it is not falsified it cannot be regarded as more than tentatively true. That is not dogma.

Enjoy.


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

This message is a reply to:
 Message 570 by havoc, posted 03-01-2011 9:42 AM havoc has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 578 by havoc, posted 03-01-2011 10:29 AM RAZD has responded

Huntard
Member (Idle past 678 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 574 of 752 (606960)
03-01-2011 10:05 AM
Reply to: Message 570 by havoc
03-01-2011 9:42 AM


Re: Cows
havoc writes:

But for creating "new" information mutation is the only choice, correct?


Depends on what you mean by "new" information.

I cant think of any conceivable evidence that darwinists would not just simply say "well now we know that evolution can do this".

It's not evolution's fault that you can't think of such a piece of evidence. I'll give you a hint: A pegasus horse would falsify evolution as we know it. It wuold of course not prove creationism, but something about the theory would have to be changed.

Dogma: An authoritative principle, belief, or statement of ideas or opinion, especially one considered to be absolutely true.

How does this not fit with the popular darwinian evolution belief?


Becuase it is not held to be absolutely true for one.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 570 by havoc, posted 03-01-2011 9:42 AM havoc has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 576 by havoc, posted 03-01-2011 10:22 AM Huntard has responded

havoc
Member (Idle past 3137 days)
Posts: 89
Joined: 03-01-2011


Message 575 of 752 (606962)
03-01-2011 10:15 AM
Reply to: Message 572 by jar
03-01-2011 10:00 AM


Re: Cows
Birds seem to still be dinos, just one of the species of dinos. Humans seem to still be primates, just one of the species of primates.

Then everything that exists is still some rna replicating bacteria. U all refuse to have the dscussion. Biology text books will say that Dinos evolved into birds, flat out and unequivocally. Seems like the question as to what mech and how long should be easy to answer. Instead we get semantics. You all propose a nice neat package that has the answers. How about answering some basic foundational questions.
.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 572 by jar, posted 03-01-2011 10:00 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 579 by jar, posted 03-01-2011 10:30 AM havoc has responded
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havoc
Member (Idle past 3137 days)
Posts: 89
Joined: 03-01-2011


Message 576 of 752 (606964)
03-01-2011 10:22 AM
Reply to: Message 574 by Huntard
03-01-2011 10:05 AM


Re: Cows
It's not evolution's fault that you can't think of such a piece of evidence. I'll give you a hint: A pegasus horse would falsify evolution as we know it. It wuold of course not prove creationism, but something about the theory would have to be changed.

So I need to find a mythical creator and that will falsify evolution "as we know it". Interesting choice of words.

Edited by havoc, : quote


This message is a reply to:
 Message 574 by Huntard, posted 03-01-2011 10:05 AM Huntard has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 577 by Huntard, posted 03-01-2011 10:26 AM havoc has responded

Huntard
Member (Idle past 678 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 577 of 752 (606965)
03-01-2011 10:26 AM
Reply to: Message 576 by havoc
03-01-2011 10:22 AM


Re: Cows
havoc writes:

So I need to find a mythical creator and that will falsify evolution "as we know it". Interesting choice of words.


But true. It was just an example. You could also try to find a crustacean with mamary glands, that would also do it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 576 by havoc, posted 03-01-2011 10:22 AM havoc has responded

Replies to this message:
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havoc
Member (Idle past 3137 days)
Posts: 89
Joined: 03-01-2011


Message 578 of 752 (606966)
03-01-2011 10:29 AM
Reply to: Message 573 by RAZD
03-01-2011 10:03 AM


Re: Cows
No, science does not just say things and expect you to believe them -- that would be dogma -- instead science relies on objective empirical evidence to show that it happens.

That is why you need evidence that {X} cannot be explained by evolutionary processes.

Note that science does not prove theories, rather it tests them to see if they can be falsified. People - including scientists - have tried to falsify evolution for over 150 years with no success yet.

In science theories are the best explanations for the known evidence, and every new test either adds to the evidence that is explained, or it invalidates the theory, which then needs to be revised to include the new evidence. This is how science works to increase knowledge of how things work.

I think that darwin and others tried to lay out ways in which the theory could be invalidated. Darwin said a feature that could not exisit through a series of small changes. Behe coined "ireducible complexity" to falsify under these terms. Sory but the name escapes me but another founder of darwinian evo said anything like motors or magnets found to exist in living things would falsify the theory. We have numerious examples of each and evolutionists simply say "now we know that mutation and natural selection can create bio motors".

It is unfalsifiable because it is "DOGMA"


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 582 by Dr Adequate, posted 03-01-2011 10:35 AM havoc has not yet responded
 Message 592 by Taq, posted 03-01-2011 10:57 AM havoc has responded
 Message 638 by RAZD, posted 03-01-2011 10:59 PM havoc has responded
 Message 639 by Percy, posted 03-02-2011 6:09 AM havoc has responded

jar
Member
Posts: 32019
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.1


(1)
Message 579 of 752 (606967)
03-01-2011 10:30 AM
Reply to: Message 575 by havoc
03-01-2011 10:15 AM


Re: Cows
havoc writes:

Birds seem to still be dinos, just one of the species of dinos. Humans seem to still be primates, just one of the species of primates.

Then everything that exists is still some rna replicating bacteria. U all refuse to have the dscussion. Biology text books will say that Dinos evolved into birds, flat out and unequivocally. Seems like the question as to what mech and how long should be easy to answer. Instead we get semantics. You all propose a nice neat package that has the answers. How about answering some basic foundational questions.
.

Did you look at the information I supplied for the classification of Homo sapiens sapiens?

Kingdom: Animalia
Phylum: Chordata
Class: Mammalia
Order: Primates
Family: Hominidae
Genus: Homo
Species: H. sapiens
Subspecies: H. s. sapiens

Learn what that means.

What does Animalia tell us about humans?

What does Chordata tell us?

What does Mammalia say about humans?

What does Primates tell us about ourselves?

Biology textbooks, depending on what age and educational level they were written for, will say something like "the evidence so far shows that birds evolved from dinos". The mechanisms are pretty easy and we can even give some rough ideas about the time it took, basically it took a long, long time, millions and millions of years, and it is still going on, they are still evolving.

The package is not neat, and in fact, the more we learn the more complex it seems to become. That's how learning works.

What basic foundational questions would you like answered?


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 575 by havoc, posted 03-01-2011 10:15 AM havoc has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 584 by havoc, posted 03-01-2011 10:39 AM jar has responded

Huntard
Member (Idle past 678 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 580 of 752 (606968)
03-01-2011 10:30 AM
Reply to: Message 575 by havoc
03-01-2011 10:15 AM


Re: Cows
havoc writes:

Biology text books will say that Dinos evolved into birds, flat out and unequivocally.


That's because the kind of biology text books that say this are simply starting out simple to not confuse the audience. Physics textbooks start with newtonian physics, even though some of that (gravity comes to mind0 is actually wrong. They don't start out with string theory, this would hopelessly confuse the audience.

Edited by Huntard, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
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havoc
Member (Idle past 3137 days)
Posts: 89
Joined: 03-01-2011


Message 581 of 752 (606969)
03-01-2011 10:33 AM
Reply to: Message 577 by Huntard
03-01-2011 10:26 AM


Re: Cows
But true. It was just an example. You could also try to find a crustacean with mamary glands, that would also do it.

Would you not say that it is convergant evo. Some newly evolved feature brought about by enviromental pressure.


This message is a reply to:
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Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 16107
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 582 of 752 (606970)
03-01-2011 10:35 AM
Reply to: Message 578 by havoc
03-01-2011 10:29 AM


Re: Cows
I think that darwin and others tried to lay out ways in which the theory could be invalidated. Darwin said a feature that could not exisit through a series of small changes. Behe coined "ireducible complexity" to falsify under these terms.

Even Behe seems to have realized he's wrong by now. But creationists don't drop an idea just because it's been proved wrong, that's why they're creationists.

Sory but the name escapes me but another founder of darwinian evo said anything like motors or magnets found to exist in living things would falsify the theory.

I believe you're thinking of Professor Imaginary Madeupperson of Nonesuch University.

It is unfalsifiable because it is "DOGMA"

The actual reason you can't think of anything that falsifies it is that it's true.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 578 by havoc, posted 03-01-2011 10:29 AM havoc has not yet responded

RAZD
Member
Posts: 20469
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 3.6


Message 583 of 752 (606971)
03-01-2011 10:35 AM
Reply to: Message 571 by havoc
03-01-2011 9:52 AM


birds are dinos. humans are apes.
Hi again havoc,

I mean something other than a cow. Like a dino then a bird. ... A cow will always produce a cow, a dion a dino a bird a bird an ape an ape and a human a human.

But a bird is still just a dino, and a human is still an ape. A cow and an ape and a human are still mammals. You need to be more specific.

There are limits on selection.

Where? Whatever is available in a breeding population is subject to selection, and if it improves the survival and breeding ability of the individual/s with a specific trait, then that trait will increase in the population. Here's a picture for you to consider:

The Flying Squirrel is a placental mammal, living in N America, descendant from squirrels without the adaption for gliding. The Sugar Glider is a marsupial mammal, living in Australia, descendant from other marsupials that do not have the adaptation for gliding.

Likewise we can look at white sharks and killer whales that have similar external body patterns and make use of the same ecological opportunities, although one is classed as a cartilaginous fish and the other is classed as a mammal.

Obviously there is no restriction on convergent evolution to develop the same external body pattern from entirely different beginnings to fit similar ecological opportunities. The body pattern is what is selected, so we conclude there is no restriction on selection.

you can get tall ones short ones hary ones bald ones fast and slow ones but they will allways remain what they came from.

And you can get even more variation than that, however evolution tells you that they will always be descendants from parent populations. Here's another image for you to consider:

At the bottom you have the parent population and the variety in size among the breeding population. As you rise from the bottom you will see that the variation in size shifts towards larger averages but that there is still the same relative degree of variation within the populations. Each generation overlaps the one below, and you only see the trend over many generations.

Then there are several branching points where the population is divided into daughter populations, each with similar ranges of variation about their average size but different from the other daughter populations. These are speciation events where the populations have become so different one from the other that they do not interbreed.

Where we once had only one breeding population (at the bottom) we now have four different breeding populations, but they are all descendant from Pelycodus rasltoni.

Is that the kind of difference you want to see?

Enjoy.

Edited by RAZD, : clrty


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

This message is a reply to:
 Message 571 by havoc, posted 03-01-2011 9:52 AM havoc has not yet responded

havoc
Member (Idle past 3137 days)
Posts: 89
Joined: 03-01-2011


Message 584 of 752 (606972)
03-01-2011 10:39 AM
Reply to: Message 579 by jar
03-01-2011 10:30 AM


Re: Cows
Did you look at the information I supplied for the classification of Homo sapiens sapiens?

Classifications are a human creation and they really tell us nothing about facts. What they do however allow is for uncritical evolutionists to draw inference that supports there theory. Very circular.

The theory supports the classification the classification proves the theory.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 579 by jar, posted 03-01-2011 10:30 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
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Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 16107
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 585 of 752 (606973)
03-01-2011 10:40 AM
Reply to: Message 570 by havoc
03-01-2011 9:42 AM


Re: Cows
I cant think of any conceivable evidence that darwinists would not just simply say "well now we know that evolution can do this".

How fortunate it is that science is not limited by the inability of creationists to think of things.

Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 570 by havoc, posted 03-01-2011 9:42 AM havoc has responded

Replies to this message:
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