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Author Topic:   Problems with evolution? Submit your questions.
frako
Member (Idle past 305 days)
Posts: 2932
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010


Message 586 of 752 (606974)
03-01-2011 10:42 AM
Reply to: Message 567 by havoc
03-01-2011 8:59 AM


Re: Cows
One mechanism" of evolution? Mutation selected by natural selection is the only story out there is it not?
No you also have mutation and human selection, the reason you have so many species of dogs, livestock .....
How many generations does it take for a cow to change into something else?
firstly you have to define something else a new species by most definitions is a new species cant mate with the original species. Or as scientists like to call it speciation.
Depends on the selective pressures.
An experiment by William Rice using one species of fruit flies produced 2 species that did not mate with each other in only 35 generations.
tough creos like you tend say well their still fruit flies, if this is the case in your instance please provide the amount of change that needs to happen before a species is something else.
Cause i might show you examples of how lizards stoped laying eggs and started giving live birth, or mice stuck on an island producing 8 different species...... And id get a silly anwser back like they r still mice bla bla bla
Natural selection can only select for an existing trait, correct?
Correct be it that this trait was the result of a mutation in this individual or already present in the individuals parents.
How do you falsify the evo dogma?
Simple find something that could not have evolved kinda tough cause i cant think of anything or how it would look like. Find no relation between species in their dna structure, prove there are no good mutations.......... there are tones of ways to falsify evolution tough none of them do it has been tried for so long to falsify evolution that evolution became a fact.
If you want to get a nobel prize loads of cash, and make your bible stomping friends happy read up on evolution so you know something about it not the silly ideas most creos have about evolution. And then ask yourself if evolution is true then this must also be true if it is not then evolution is not true. Do the research and i guarantee you that if you find something that disproves evolution you will get the nobel prize and tones of cash.
Why did i tell you to read up on evolution first well because creos have silly notions like when i see an ape in the zoo give birth to a human il believe in evolution. Well guess what if i saw that i would go to church and believe in god.

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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 587 of 752 (606975)
03-01-2011 10:43 AM
Reply to: Message 584 by havoc
03-01-2011 10:39 AM


Re: Cows
Classifications are a human creation and they really tell us nothing about facts. What they do however allow is for uncritical evolutionists to draw inference that supports there theory. Very circular.
The theory supports the classification the classification proves the theory.
It is also the case that your failure to understand science does not constitute a valid critique of it.

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havoc
Member (Idle past 4753 days)
Posts: 89
Joined: 03-01-2011


Message 588 of 752 (606978)
03-01-2011 10:51 AM
Reply to: Message 585 by Dr Adequate
03-01-2011 10:40 AM


Re: Cows
How fortunate it is that science is not limited by the inability of creationists to think of things
getting personal. Sign of a weak argument. Who said I was a creationists? You just proved my dogma point. all I have stated is my personal critical arguments against darwinian evolution. Any such questions must be met with contempt.
I have my faith you have yours.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 585 by Dr Adequate, posted 03-01-2011 10:40 AM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 589 of 752 (606979)
03-01-2011 10:51 AM
Reply to: Message 584 by havoc
03-01-2011 10:39 AM


Re: Cows
havoc writes:
jar writes:
Did you look at the information I supplied for the classification of Homo sapiens sapiens?
Classifications are a human creation and they really tell us nothing about facts. What they do however allow is for uncritical evolutionists to draw inference that supports there theory. Very circular.
The theory supports the classification the classification proves the theory.
HUH?
Classifications are a human construct of course, just as names are a human construct.
Do you understand what those classifications tell us about FACTS?
What does Animalia tell us about humans?
What does Chordata tell us?
What does Mammalia say about humans?
What does Primates tell us about ourselves?
Each of those classifications tells us about facts.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
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Taq
Member
Posts: 9972
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.5


Message 590 of 752 (606981)
03-01-2011 10:52 AM
Reply to: Message 584 by havoc
03-01-2011 10:39 AM


Re: Cows
Classifications are a human creation and they really tell us nothing about facts.
Linnaean taxonomy is certain a human creation that can be arbitrary at times. Where to draw the line between genera and family is certainly an arbitrary decision. However, the nested hierarchy is a fact, a fact that evolution predicts we should see. ID/creationism does not make this prediction.
The theory of evolution predicts which mixtures of characteristics we should and should not see in both living and fossil species. This is how you test the theory. We should see species with a mixture of reptilian and mammalian features, but we should NOT see a mixture of avian and mammalian features. Therefore, an animal that has mammary glands and lays leathery eggs like the platypus is consistent with evolution while a bird with mammary glands and three middle ear bones would not.
A majory violation of the nested hierarchy would be obvious to everyone, and it would be allowable for ID/creationism. So why don't we see any?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 584 by havoc, posted 03-01-2011 10:39 AM havoc has replied

Replies to this message:
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Taq
Member
Posts: 9972
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.5


Message 591 of 752 (606982)
03-01-2011 10:53 AM
Reply to: Message 588 by havoc
03-01-2011 10:51 AM


Re: Cows
I have my faith you have yours.
Projection is not an argument. We have the evidence.

This message is a reply to:
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Taq
Member
Posts: 9972
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.5


Message 592 of 752 (606984)
03-01-2011 10:57 AM
Reply to: Message 578 by havoc
03-01-2011 10:29 AM


Re: Cows
Darwin said a feature that could not exisit through a series of small changes. Behe coined "ireducible complexity" to falsify under these terms.
Behe never demonstrated that IC systems could not evolve. In fact, IC systems were predicted to be a product of evolution in 1918:
quote:
. . . thus a complicated machine was gradually built up whose effective working was dependent upon the interlocking action of very numerous different elementary parts or factors, and many of the characters and factors which, when new, were originally merely an asset finally became necessary because other necessary characters and factors had subsequently become changed so as to be dependent on the former. It must result, in consequence, that a dropping out of, or even a slight change in any one of these parts is very likely to disturb fatally the whole machinery; for this reason we should expect very many, if not most, mutations to result in lethal factors ..."
Muller 1918 pp. 463-464.
Muller, H. J. (1918) "Genetic variability, twin hybrids and constant hybrids, in a case of balanced lethal factors." Genetics 3:422-499.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 578 by havoc, posted 03-01-2011 10:29 AM havoc has replied

Replies to this message:
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Taq
Member
Posts: 9972
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.5


(1)
Message 593 of 752 (606985)
03-01-2011 11:04 AM
Reply to: Message 567 by havoc
03-01-2011 8:59 AM


Re: Cows
How many generations does it take for a cow to change into something else?
It will never happen. You don't evolve out of your ancestry. In the tree of life you are always a part of the branch you came from. You never clip yourself off from a branch and attach somewhere else. What can happen is that the biodiversity of cows can increase, and perhaps even new species of cow will evolve. Think of all the dog breeds that have emerged from their wolf ancestors and how the wolf is still a dog as are all of the dog breeds.
Edited by Taq, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 567 by havoc, posted 03-01-2011 8:59 AM havoc has replied

Replies to this message:
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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 594 of 752 (606986)
03-01-2011 11:15 AM
Reply to: Message 588 by havoc
03-01-2011 10:51 AM


Re: Cows
getting personal. Sign of a weak argument. Who said I was a creationists? You just proved my dogma point. all I have stated is my personal critical arguments against darwinian evolution. Any such questions must be met with contempt.
I have my faith you have yours.
Did you have a point, or are you just whining?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 588 by havoc, posted 03-01-2011 10:51 AM havoc has replied

Replies to this message:
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havoc
Member (Idle past 4753 days)
Posts: 89
Joined: 03-01-2011


Message 595 of 752 (606987)
03-01-2011 11:16 AM
Reply to: Message 590 by Taq
03-01-2011 10:52 AM


Re: Cows
A majory violation of the nested hierarchy would be obvious to everyone, and it would be allowable for ID/creationism. So why don't we see any?
Major being the most important word here. We dont find mermaids or pegasus and this is somehow evidence for evolution. Thats a weak argument. When examples are found it is chalked up to the catch all of convergance.
Man made things can also be "nested" Does not prove they evolved.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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havoc
Member (Idle past 4753 days)
Posts: 89
Joined: 03-01-2011


Message 596 of 752 (606988)
03-01-2011 11:18 AM
Reply to: Message 594 by Dr Adequate
03-01-2011 11:15 AM


Re: Cows
Did you have a point, or are you just whining?
My point is that I offerd a couple critical points about your beloved theory and you assume I am such and such. DOGMA
Desent must be destroyed.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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 Message 606 by Taq, posted 03-01-2011 11:48 AM havoc has not replied

havoc
Member (Idle past 4753 days)
Posts: 89
Joined: 03-01-2011


Message 597 of 752 (606990)
03-01-2011 11:23 AM
Reply to: Message 592 by Taq
03-01-2011 10:57 AM


Re: Cows
Behe never demonstrated that IC systems could not evolve. In fact, IC systems were predicted to be a product of evolution in 1918:
That is not the same. Your quote says "asset" each part would therefore have a selectable function. That makes sence. however if you have a muliple part machine inwhich each part is useless without the others this could neve evolve.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 592 by Taq, posted 03-01-2011 10:57 AM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 598 of 752 (606991)
03-01-2011 11:23 AM
Reply to: Message 596 by havoc
03-01-2011 11:18 AM


Re: Cows
My point is that I offerd a couple critical points about your beloved theory and you assume I am such and such. DOGMA
Desent must be destroyed.
It's a fair bet that anyone being grossly and foolishly wrong about evolution is a creationist. However, if you will tell us that you are not a creationist, and what you are instead, then I shall believe you, because you are of course deluded when you pretend that I am dogmatic on this subject.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 596 by havoc, posted 03-01-2011 11:18 AM havoc has replied

Replies to this message:
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havoc
Member (Idle past 4753 days)
Posts: 89
Joined: 03-01-2011


Message 599 of 752 (606992)
03-01-2011 11:28 AM
Reply to: Message 593 by Taq
03-01-2011 11:04 AM


Re: Cows
It will never happen. You don't evolve out of your ancestry. In the tree of life you are always a part of the branch you came from. You never clip yourself off from a branch and attach somewhere else. What can happen is that the biodiversity of cows can increase, and perhaps even new species of cow will evolve. Think of all the dog breeds that have emerged from their wolf ancestors and how the wolf is still a dog as are all of the dog breed.
Your quoting Genesis. Kinds reproduce after there own kinds. The cow thing came up because someone on your side said that you can get darker or lighter cows and this proves evolution. My point is that it variation within the limits of the existing info available.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 593 by Taq, posted 03-01-2011 11:04 AM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 607 by Taq, posted 03-01-2011 11:52 AM havoc has replied

havoc
Member (Idle past 4753 days)
Posts: 89
Joined: 03-01-2011


Message 600 of 752 (606993)
03-01-2011 11:30 AM
Reply to: Message 598 by Dr Adequate
03-01-2011 11:23 AM


Re: Cows
It's a fair bet that anyone being grossly and foolishly wrong about evolution is a creationist. However, if you will tell us that you are not a creationist, and what you are instead, then I shall believe you, because you are of course deluded when you pretend that I am dogmatic on this subject.
Why not just engage in debate. you can call me what ever you like but the facts dont change.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 598 by Dr Adequate, posted 03-01-2011 11:23 AM Dr Adequate has not replied

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