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Author Topic:   American Budget Cuts
Taq
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Posts: 10077
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 139 of 350 (606090)
02-23-2011 6:27 PM
Reply to: Message 134 by cavediver
02-23-2011 5:53 PM


Re: Budget Cuts & Reality
Why would anyone buy those shares if those shares do not receive a dividend? What do you think drives the capital appreciation of those shares? Why would anyone ever buy a share that does not compensate for the risk inherent in that share?
You didn't ask for the motivation for trading the shares.
I know you don't see the difference, and that is what I'm complaining about. You and Crash and Rrhain the other week have very little clue about all of this and yet let rip with emotional and hyperbolic rhetoric. It's no wonder the right find such behaviour hilarious.
Then what is the difference? Please explain.
What I see is the people in charge of watching the corporate cookie jar are helping themselves to the cookies. With some of the moves towards privatization we see massive profiteering, such as the deregulation of energy in the hands of Enron. The practices that health insurance companies have been allowed to get away with has been scandalous. The gap between the rich and the middle class continues to widen while expenses (e.g. health care and education) continue to rise for the middle class.
And in fact, I totally agree with you regarding the stupid levels of board level compensation. Actually, it's not the level that I disagree with the most but the no-downside reward structure that is in place. Same with trading remuneration in the banks. I was writing and advising on this very issue 11 years ago on the back of the emerging market crisis... and nothing has changed.
I am glad we agree on this part. That is what I was originally complaining about with regard to defense budgets and health care.
By personal use, do you mean the use made of it by the pension funds?
This would apply more to privately owned companies than publically owned. This is where the owner takes out a chunk of money out of the companies coffers and puts it in his/her own coffers.
And back to my first point. Should shares not pay dividends? Who in their right mind would exchange an essentially risk-free dollar for a dollar share of some company, with no compensation for the risk?
Just so we understand that money is going out of the company for things not related to production or improvement of product. That was all I was pointing out.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 134 by cavediver, posted 02-23-2011 5:53 PM cavediver has not replied

Taq
Member
Posts: 10077
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 304 of 350 (607046)
03-01-2011 3:14 PM
Reply to: Message 289 by RAZD
02-28-2011 7:27 PM


Re: TOPIC REDIRECT
To sum up my thoughts on the off-topic bits, my view on capitalism is similar to the way Churchill viewed democracy:
"Democracy is the worst form of government except for all those others that have been tried."--Winston Churchill
So, on to the OP:
And we are way off topic for reducing the budget by cutting military - specifically unnecessary military - spending.
The real question that we americans need to ask ourselves is if it is still in our best interest, and the interest of the rest of the world, to be the Global Police. Do we really need to have military bases in Germany, Japan, Korea, etc.? What is our role in the global politics in a post-Cold War era where Europe has solved most of their political problems?
Any presidential candidate that even suggests moving towards a more isolationist position is going to be heavily criticized by opposing candidates, and it will work. You can not appear "weak" as a presidential candidate which means you have to be somewhat hawkish. I think there needs to be a real philosophical shift within the populace before we can really talk about large cuts in the defense budget.
One positive that we can take from the defense budget is the opportunity that kids have for receiving a vocational education and even attend university through the GI Bill. I think it would be a real positive if these programs were available without requiring service in the military. Perhaps we could move it more towards a Peace Corp type of service.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 289 by RAZD, posted 02-28-2011 7:27 PM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 311 by RAZD, posted 03-01-2011 10:27 PM Taq has replied

Taq
Member
Posts: 10077
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 326 of 350 (607180)
03-02-2011 12:13 PM
Reply to: Message 311 by RAZD
03-01-2011 10:27 PM


Re: TOPIC REDIRECT: reduce the military budget first if budget cuts necessary
Indeed, and unregulated capitalism has time and again been proven to be disastrous, whenever it is tried. From the recent deregulation of banks, to previous deregulation of the health industry.
The same could be said of democracy. There are some things that are not up for vote, such as basic human rights. Also, there are times when unpopular policies must be enacted.
Personally, imho, the pretense of America serving as a Global Police has done more harm to the values of America than any other program.
I think we need to go back to the origin of this situation. Previous to WWII America took a mostly isolationist position. Until the bombing of Pearl Harbor public sentiment was very much against entering the war in Europe. The common saying was "Europe's problems are Europe's problems". Perhaps this was a bit naive, but that is a different subject for a different time.
After the war America took on a very vital role. It was the only country whose industry was not ravaged by war. America was in the position to supply loans and equipment to rebuild Europe and Japan (i.e. the Marshal Plan). Also, America served as an intermediary between old rivals which allowed for a cooling of hostilities even as the cold war ramped up. Compare this to the period between WWI and WWII where reparations for past transgressions were the rule. The Europe we see today is due in part to the influence of America as a global policeman. The presence of American troops in Germany and Okinawa (and even later in S. Korea) were a "guarantee" of peace, if you will.
After the rebuilding of Europe, America served as a very strong counterweight to the Soviet Union. You could put it in terms of NATO v. Warsaw Pact, but we all know who the heavy hitters were.
In the modern age the US is still seen as the global police when it serves the common good. In the eyes of many, including myself, the UN is too bogged down in bureaucracy and self interest. I'm not saying that the UN is broken, but at times there are too many interests and too much posturing.
There is also one truth that can not be ignored. The military power of America allows it to shape world events in it's favor. It is a source of influence that allows the US to pursue it's national interests. Military is power. We can argue back and forth as to whether economics or moral standing should be the source of influence, but you can not ignore the sway that tanks and aircraft carriers possess. Whenever the the US wants to make their voice heard in hostile situations what is the first thing that happens? The US sends an aircraft carrier to the region.
The question that needs to be asked is if we are paying too high a price for this influence. Can we keep pumping this amount of money into the military while citizens go without health care and a livable pension? What about the basic infrastructure of the country? I really think these things will come to a head in the next 25 years.
Personally, imho, I don't think any single nation can do this, for then who polices the police?
I think it is a matter of global opinion. As long as the US is seen as a (mostly) just nation they will be allowed to be the police. The election of Obama as president did a lot to earn back some of that respect. It was rightly seen as a rejection of Bush politics as well as a step towards a post-racial America. Now it is up to Obama to win back that respect.
I disagree. I think a strong case can be made for reducing redundant spending in the military: we don't need more atomic bombs for instance, nor do we need to do more testing.
I completely agree with your sentiment, but I think we all know how this can be spun. Any reduction in military spending can be spun in a way to make a candidate look weak. This goes back to JFK's "missile gap" tactic used against Eisenhower.
In addition, I think a strong case can be made for an international approach to Global Police and that many Americans would be relieved to have less of a national exposure to the world violence, especially when it has no apparent benefit to the US. Ask the average person why we are in Iraq.
The UN is too unpopular with Americans to make this work. Not only that, but any presidential candidate that speaks of handing over decisions to the UN is seen as weak. The ethos is that the US does not need to ask the UN to do anything, and any limitations put on the US by the UN is unconstitutional (whether that is correct or not). In politics, perception is reality. In order to change the reality you need to change perception first.
Indeed. Sadly, many Americans do not even have a high school education sufficient to qualify for higher education, so there could also be some remedial (science?) education built in - along with the lessons gained from service in other parts of the country.
This of course would also be like a return to the WPA jobs from the Great Depression (due, of course, to another failure of unregulated capitalism), and it could also provide much more than education.
This could also be a route for new immigrants to take into the country: work for the New WPA for two years, during which you learn the english language and the laws of the land, the provisions of the constitution, etc, so that at the end you are equipped to pass the tests for citizenship.
These types of jobs would pump service back into the country, and benefit the nation more than redundant military spending.
The difficulty here is running these vocational programs without taking jobs away from the public sector. If you have a publically funded auto shop that charges half of what Jim the Mechanic charges then there will be a lot of pissed off people. Even WPA projects would be a tough sell since these jobs are now filled by private corporations through a bidding process. During the Great Depression these corporations were gone and so the government didn't have a problem hiring people directly.
Perhaps a good way around this is to have a vocational education program for basic knowledge of the field and then an apprenticeship program that gives tax breaks to businesses for taking on newly trained workers. We could also send these apprentices abroad to build schools, hospitals, water purification plants, etc. in 3rd world nations.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 311 by RAZD, posted 03-01-2011 10:27 PM RAZD has seen this message but not replied

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