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Author Topic:   Problems with evolution? Submit your questions.
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 699 of 752 (607255)
03-02-2011 7:21 PM
Reply to: Message 645 by havoc
03-02-2011 9:25 AM


shakespeare, mutation AND selection
Hi again havoc, try to stick to one issue at a time and you might make some sense, rather than dropping argument after argument.
So if you know the end game the phrase that you want you can get there. However this is not how selection works. Only traits that give that generation a breeding advantage will be selected.
You were the one to introduce the poor analogy in the first place, so now you are complaining that it doesn't represent evolution? LOL.
... However this is not how selection works. Only traits that give that generation a breeding advantage will be selected.
Those that survive and breed will survive and breed, some will survive and breed better than others, but in all cases it is a matter of fitness to the ecological opportunities that drives the selection.
In the case of this poor analogy what we have for the "ecological opportunities" is the phrase from Shakespeare that you select, and selection takes those tiles that fit the ecological opportunities, and reshuffles the rest. This would represent (badly) following generations and testing them for fitness to the ecological opportunities.
It would be better a better analogy if you took say 10 or 20 tiles at random from the pile, and tested them for fitness, then took another 10 or 20 (with a supposedly endless pile of tiles to draw from, but you could keep the relative relationships of various letters in the mix).
You could also try taking a specific phrase to start with and then replacing letters until you developed a different phrase, but the modeling there is even worse compared to actual biology.
This does not explain how sight or flight or micro motors or proteins can come into existence the first time.
And that was not what you asked. Your post Message 615 said:
Is there a base in any genome that can not be mutated?
Agreed mutations can and do occure. However you can shake up the scrabble board as often as you like and you will never get a Shakespeare.
so once again ...
... you are moving the goalposts.
Every famous mutation ... once examined at the molecular level has been shown to involve information loss.
Answered on Message 634 (See Irreducible Complexity, Information Loss and Barry Hall's experiments, particularly part 2 of the first post) and Message 669
Enjoy.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


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This message is a reply to:
 Message 645 by havoc, posted 03-02-2011 9:25 AM havoc has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 701 by havoc, posted 03-03-2011 8:09 AM RAZD has seen this message but not replied

RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 750 of 752 (607454)
03-03-2011 7:17 PM
Reply to: Message 700 by Dr Adequate
03-02-2011 11:51 PM


methods of propulsion and spinning strings
Hi Dr Adequate.
Your argument is flawed. The small-scale dynamics of water are different from its large-scale fluid dynamics, because at a small scale its viscosity becomes a much more important factor while inertia becomes negligible. You'd have to test the bacterium against something of a similar size.
Not true, otherwise scale model testing of large ships would not work. The reason scale models are used in tow test tanks is because the effects can be corrected by using the Reynolds Numbers to adjust the effects.
Reynolds number - Wikipedia
quote:
In fluid mechanics, the Reynolds number Re is a dimensionless number that gives a measure of the ratio of inertial forces ρv2/L to viscous forces μv/L2 and consequently quantifies the relative importance of these two types of forces for given flow conditions. The concept was introduced by George Gabriel Stokes in 1851,[1] but the Reynolds number is named after Osborne Reynolds (1842—1912), who popularized its use in 1883.[2][3]
Reynolds numbers frequently arise when performing dimensional analysis of fluid dynamics problems, and as such can be used to determine dynamic similitude between different experimental cases. They are also used to characterize different flow regimes, such as laminar or turbulent flow: laminar flow occurs at low Reynolds numbers, where viscous forces are dominant, and is characterized by smooth, constant fluid motion, while turbulent flow occurs at high Reynolds numbers and is dominated by inertial forces, which tend to produce chaotic eddies, vortices and other flow instabilities.
Not that I want to do the calcualtions, but it could be done.
A 1" scale yellow pine tank-test model for the twelve-meter class America's Cup challenger Sceptre, circa 1958
quote:
A 1" scale yellow pine tank-test model for the twelve-meter class America's Cup challenger Sceptre, circa 1958

And, imho, no matter how small you do the testing, a propeller will still outperform a long spinning string that has a lot of extra surface drag in addition to little propelling surface.
This is because a propeller uses the lift effect as well as the push effect, say of a paddle, in contrast to the vortex drag that would form around a spinning string or hose that goes off in chaotic directions where most of the energy is wasted rather than used for propulsion.
This is why fish have paddles instead of string fins ... and eels use a flattened body that "snakes" back and forth in a plane perpendicular to the flattened body, rather than spin.
What you have, is once again a trait that is adapted from previous function/s to a new use, not because the end result is the best possible design, but because it is just adequate enough to do the job.
Enjoy.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 700 by Dr Adequate, posted 03-02-2011 11:51 PM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 751 by Dr Adequate, posted 03-03-2011 7:45 PM RAZD has seen this message but not replied

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