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Author Topic:   American Budget Cuts
Phage0070
Inactive Member


Message 328 of 350 (607282)
03-02-2011 10:28 PM
Reply to: Message 327 by Taz
03-02-2011 10:22 PM


Re: simple
Taz writes:
What if we follow the true path of unregulated capitalism? Then all the wealth in a nation would fall into the hands of a few people who would use the wealth to acquire more.
That doesn't follow. What caused the middle class and poor to start losing real wealth rather than continually gaining it, like what has been historically happening?
Taz writes:
Yes, you have. You've been yapping quite a few times on how good rich people are for giving to charity. Just go back and see for yourself.
Why don't you do that for me? I only recall pointing out that the rich already tend to give to charity and that removing a burden they didn't have in the first place wasn't likely to increase their amount. Thats not a moral judgment or tooting their horn, its just an assessment of what would or wouldn't motivate a change in behavior.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 327 by Taz, posted 03-02-2011 10:22 PM Taz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 330 by Taz, posted 03-02-2011 11:36 PM Phage0070 has replied

Phage0070
Inactive Member


Message 329 of 350 (607284)
03-02-2011 10:46 PM
Reply to: Message 325 by Straggler
03-02-2011 10:37 AM


Re: inequality widens, gets worse for the workers
Straggler writes:
The idea that the concentration of wealth at any given point in time is irrelevant in practical terms only makes sense if you think that there is an unlimited amount of wealth in existence at any given point in time.
Look, suppose that there is another planet with aliens on it who have a machine which can churn out real wealth at a stratospheric rate. Since it is just them and us in this scenario, when they switch on their machine the aliens become immensely wealthy very quickly. There is only a finite amount of wealth in the system, but it almost immediately becomes concentrated on the alien's planet.
Why exactly do we care? Progress on our planet continues unabated, everyone increases in real wealth at the same rate they did before. The aliens being super-rich isn't relevant.
Yes, in this example the planets are isolated. But what if they were right next to each other, or we were talking about the same country? What exactly is the interaction thats going to be so horrible?
Straggler writes:
But actually the bulk of the wealth acquired by the stratospherically wealthy is simply a direct consequence of the ever increasing concentration of wealth that the economic system you have described inevitably results in isn’t it?
A system which is basically summed up as retaining control of your resources. Do you really think that the wealth yielded from investments is just some sort of strange technicality of our economic system, or is it a deserved kickback for real benefit?
Straggler writes:
You are conflating the term earnings as defined by and derived from a particular economic system with the concept of earned as applied to some sort of innate moral right to ownership. Can you see that they are not the same thing?
Conceptually, yes, but as I have said before if you are going to draw a distinction you need to point out where the economic system diverges from morality. Otherwise you are just asking for miscommunication.
For the sake of expediency I am going to assume that legal economic transactions are at the very least morally neutral until indicated otherwise. I can't read your mind Straggler.
Straggler writes:
Well they get to be the incredibly privileged wealthy elite in a society that runs on an economic system that didn’t just allow a tiny few to become stratospherically wealthy but which made it practically inevitable.
They don't "run" a free market. There isn't any "running" to be done, thats what makes it free. People are free not to have anything to do with the rich, but they do so because its in their self interest to borrow their wealth.
Straggler writes:
Phage writes:
Straggler writes:
Do you think that in order to function capitalism requires the unfettered concentration of wealth?
No, but I understand that wealth aids in creating more wealth.
OK. But creates wealth for who?
For everyone, don't you get that? When the rich invest their money the people who take that investment do so of their own free will because it makes them wealthier than they would otherwise be able to achieve. Everyone benefits, otherwise they wouldn't participate.
Is that "OK", or did you have something else in mind other than mutual benefit?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 325 by Straggler, posted 03-02-2011 10:37 AM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 332 by Straggler, posted 03-03-2011 12:47 AM Phage0070 has replied

Phage0070
Inactive Member


Message 331 of 350 (607289)
03-02-2011 11:38 PM
Reply to: Message 330 by Taz
03-02-2011 11:36 PM


Re: simple
Taz writes:
Before I go down this path of debatre with you, I need to know if you're genuinely this naive or if you're just playing dumb.
Perhaps you should check the data, like I did.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 330 by Taz, posted 03-02-2011 11:36 PM Taz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 333 by Taz, posted 03-03-2011 12:54 AM Phage0070 has replied

Phage0070
Inactive Member


Message 335 of 350 (607326)
03-03-2011 7:04 AM
Reply to: Message 332 by Straggler
03-03-2011 12:47 AM


Re: inequality widens, gets worse for the workers
Straggler writes:
The fact is that the amount of wealth resource in existence in society at any point in time is finite. Therefore the degree to which this finite (note: not static - but finite) wealth is concentrated in (for example) the top 1% has a very practical impact on the amount of wealth available at that point in time to the remaining 99% Surely this is simply mathematically indisputable?
No, as the hypothetical illustrated. The skyrocketing of a total in no way limits the increase or size of a subset. If you had even tried in the slightest you would see that.
I don't have time for the rest of your shit.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 332 by Straggler, posted 03-03-2011 12:47 AM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 339 by Straggler, posted 03-03-2011 9:01 AM Phage0070 has replied

Phage0070
Inactive Member


Message 336 of 350 (607327)
03-03-2011 7:10 AM
Reply to: Message 333 by Taz
03-03-2011 12:54 AM


Re: simple
Taz writes:
Ok, let me get this straight. Are you claiming that the wealth distribution is becoming more equalized? I just want to make sure because you seem to be under some kind of spell that prevents you from being non-cryptic.
No. Its simple:
The rich are getting richer. The poor are also getting richer. This is in real terms, not relative to each other. I cited data to support this. Both can buy more things of real value. The rich are getting richer at a faster rate which widens the divide, thats all. Data was cited to support this as well.
Poor: Base of 10, +1 every year.
Rich: Base of 1000, + 100 every year.
Result: Poor's personal total gets steadily larger while their percentage share of the overall total gets steadily smaller. Not a mathematical impossibility, really quite simple.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 333 by Taz, posted 03-03-2011 12:54 AM Taz has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 337 by frako, posted 03-03-2011 7:46 AM Phage0070 has replied

Phage0070
Inactive Member


Message 338 of 350 (607330)
03-03-2011 7:49 AM
Reply to: Message 337 by frako
03-03-2011 7:46 AM


Re: simple
frako writes:
and how much of the poor guys +1 every year does inflation negate.
I guess you would have to do your research wouldn't you? Luckily for you I posted historical graphs of the real purchasing power for the wealthy and poor which are already adjusted for things such as inflation! There is no reason to just sit there and wonder... go, look at it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 337 by frako, posted 03-03-2011 7:46 AM frako has not replied

Phage0070
Inactive Member


Message 340 of 350 (607357)
03-03-2011 10:26 AM
Reply to: Message 339 by Straggler
03-03-2011 9:01 AM


Re: inequality widens, gets worse for the workers
Straggler writes:
I said that the amount of wealth resource in existence in society at any point in time is finite. Do you dispute this?
Nope.
Straggler writes:
I said that if a resource is finite at a point in time then the concentration of that resource in the top 1% at that point in time has direct practical consequences for how much of that resource is available to the other 99% at that point in time. Do you dispute this?
The fact that a resource is finite has direct practical consequences of how much of that resource is available.
Point?
Straggler writes:
  • But this economic system as you yourself have described it if left unrestrained results in a runaway concentration of wealth which if left unhindered acts against competition and entrepreneurism...
  • This is the sort of claim I was trying to pry out of you. Make a case for this, not just a statement.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 339 by Straggler, posted 03-03-2011 9:01 AM Straggler has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 343 by Straggler, posted 03-03-2011 3:29 PM Phage0070 has replied

    Phage0070
    Inactive Member


    Message 342 of 350 (607395)
    03-03-2011 1:53 PM
    Reply to: Message 341 by crashfrog
    03-03-2011 12:59 PM


    Re: inequality widens, gets worse for the workers
    crashfrog writes:
    Can you elaborate on what specific investments were made and when?
    No, I can't personally account for massive numbers of financial investments which I was not privy to. However, you are the person crying foul. Can you elaborate on what you think is uncouth about the process? Did they break the law, should the law be changed and on what grounds, what?

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 341 by crashfrog, posted 03-03-2011 12:59 PM crashfrog has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 347 by crashfrog, posted 03-03-2011 10:25 PM Phage0070 has replied

    Phage0070
    Inactive Member


    Message 346 of 350 (607455)
    03-03-2011 7:17 PM
    Reply to: Message 343 by Straggler
    03-03-2011 3:29 PM


    Re: inequality widens, gets worse for the workers
    Straggler writes:
    Previously you could see no problem at all even with the situation where 1% of the population owned 99% of the wealth. Do you still stand by this?
    As of yet, yes. I am awaiting your argument to show me the problem.
    Straggler writes:
    How can effective monopoly of investment wealth possibly promote competition?
    99% of the population is competing for 99% of the wealth as investment capital. Why would you consider that stifling competition?
    Straggler writes:
    How can investment decisions restricted to socially detached phenomenally wealthy old men and their heirs who need for nothing at all be the best recipe for innovation?
    Most rich, detached, stuffy old men actually offload the responsibility of intelligently investing their money onto people who are experts in certain fields and are not detached. These companies sell varieties of expertly-chosen investment packages so these wealthy old men are not constantly personally choosing which stocks to buy and sell to grow their fortunes. Perhaps you have heard of some of these companies.
    Straggler writes:
    That the more concentrated the wealth in (for example) the top 1% at any given point in time the less resource there is at that point in time available to be invested by anyone else.
    Actually there is more. Almost all of the wealth of the rich is invested, meaning it is available as investment capital. If everyone had the same amount of money and that wasn't more than they could invest in increasing their personal efficiency, then there would be essentially no investment capital available.
    Concentrating the wealth in a smaller percentage of the population actually increases the amount of investment capital out there.
    Straggler writes:
    Including the democratically elected government who are usually relied upon to invest in things like education, health, scientific research, national infrastructure etc. etc.
    What are you talking about? Even a flat tax rate would leave governments completely unaffected by such a distribution. If you get taxed the same amount per dollar then its irrelevant who holds it. And they can always just raise taxes. Interestingly this is more attractive as the vast majority of the burden doesn't fall on the vast majority of voters...
    Straggler writes:
    Which means that rather than a democratically determined programme of investment we instead increasingly have a programme defined by the whims of a few old men and their heirs who are so stratospherically wealthy that they are effectively cut-off from the rest of society and who have little need to do anything other than pursue their pet projects.
    I already addressed the government side of things, but even in the private sector this would only apply if the rich suddenly decided to stop going for the most profitable investments (determined by market forces of the people). Now I'm not going to complain about this "what if" scenario, but why exactly would they change up the game exactly? Couldn't this equally apply to others suddenly deciding to ignore profit motives and do whatever?
    Straggler writes:
    They might decide to invest in the next generation of particle accelerators. Or they might just plough their money into building a chain of creationist institutes.
    These are the same choices have always existed. Personally I think its more likely for a person who lives in luxury with the benefit of access to superior education and advisors to be convinced to behave wisely. At the very least it seems conducive to altruism.
    Is this concentration of wealth and associated unelected political power good for democracy? For society?
    I haven't seen an argument that it isn't, why don't you try to come up with one?

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 343 by Straggler, posted 03-03-2011 3:29 PM Straggler has not replied

    Phage0070
    Inactive Member


    Message 348 of 350 (607467)
    03-03-2011 10:36 PM
    Reply to: Message 347 by crashfrog
    03-03-2011 10:25 PM


    Re: inequality widens, gets worse for the workers
    crashfrog writes:
    No, I can't personally account for massive numbers of financial investments which I was not privy to.
    Then on what basis do you contend that they were made?
    That nobody was arrested? Don't you think its appropriate to assume that the vast majority of transactions made in the economic system were done legally?
    crashfrog writes:
    The outcome.
    Explain why exactly the outcome is a bad thing.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 347 by crashfrog, posted 03-03-2011 10:25 PM crashfrog has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 349 by crashfrog, posted 03-03-2011 11:24 PM Phage0070 has not replied

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