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Author Topic:   American Budget Cuts
Phage0070
Inactive Member


Message 346 of 350 (607455)
03-03-2011 7:17 PM
Reply to: Message 343 by Straggler
03-03-2011 3:29 PM


Re: inequality widens, gets worse for the workers
Straggler writes:

Previously you could see no problem at all even with the situation where 1% of the population owned 99% of the wealth. Do you still stand by this?

As of yet, yes. I am awaiting your argument to show me the problem.

Straggler writes:

How can effective monopoly of investment wealth possibly promote competition?

99% of the population is competing for 99% of the wealth as investment capital. Why would you consider that stifling competition?

Straggler writes:

How can investment decisions restricted to socially detached phenomenally wealthy old men and their heirs who need for nothing at all be the best recipe for innovation?

Most rich, detached, stuffy old men actually offload the responsibility of intelligently investing their money onto people who are experts in certain fields and are not detached. These companies sell varieties of expertly-chosen investment packages so these wealthy old men are not constantly personally choosing which stocks to buy and sell to grow their fortunes. Perhaps you have heard of some of these companies.

Straggler writes:

That the more concentrated the wealth in (for example) the top 1% at any given point in time the less resource there is at that point in time available to be invested by anyone else.

Actually there is more. Almost all of the wealth of the rich is invested, meaning it is available as investment capital. If everyone had the same amount of money and that wasn't more than they could invest in increasing their personal efficiency, then there would be essentially no investment capital available.

Concentrating the wealth in a smaller percentage of the population actually increases the amount of investment capital out there.

Straggler writes:

Including the democratically elected government who are usually relied upon to invest in things like education, health, scientific research, national infrastructure etc. etc.

What are you talking about? Even a flat tax rate would leave governments completely unaffected by such a distribution. If you get taxed the same amount per dollar then its irrelevant who holds it. And they can always just raise taxes. Interestingly this is more attractive as the vast majority of the burden doesn't fall on the vast majority of voters...

Straggler writes:

Which means that rather than a democratically determined programme of investment we instead increasingly have a programme defined by the whims of a few old men and their heirs who are so stratospherically wealthy that they are effectively cut-off from the rest of society and who have little need to do anything other than pursue their pet projects.

I already addressed the government side of things, but even in the private sector this would only apply if the rich suddenly decided to stop going for the most profitable investments (determined by market forces of the people). Now I'm not going to complain about this "what if" scenario, but why exactly would they change up the game exactly? Couldn't this equally apply to others suddenly deciding to ignore profit motives and do whatever?

Straggler writes:

They might decide to invest in the next generation of particle accelerators. Or they might just plough their money into building a chain of creationist institutes.

These are the same choices have always existed. Personally I think its more likely for a person who lives in luxury with the benefit of access to superior education and advisors to be convinced to behave wisely. At the very least it seems conducive to altruism.

Is this concentration of wealth and associated unelected political power good for democracy? For society?

I haven't seen an argument that it isn't, why don't you try to come up with one?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 343 by Straggler, posted 03-03-2011 3:29 PM Straggler has not yet responded

crashfrog
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 347 of 350 (607466)
03-03-2011 10:25 PM
Reply to: Message 342 by Phage0070
03-03-2011 1:53 PM


Re: inequality widens, gets worse for the workers
No, I can't personally account for massive numbers of financial investments which I was not privy to.

Then on what basis do you contend that they were made?

Can you elaborate on what you think is uncouth about the process?

The outcome.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 342 by Phage0070, posted 03-03-2011 1:53 PM Phage0070 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 348 by Phage0070, posted 03-03-2011 10:36 PM crashfrog has responded

Phage0070
Inactive Member


Message 348 of 350 (607467)
03-03-2011 10:36 PM
Reply to: Message 347 by crashfrog
03-03-2011 10:25 PM


Re: inequality widens, gets worse for the workers
crashfrog writes:

No, I can't personally account for massive numbers of financial investments which I was not privy to.

Then on what basis do you contend that they were made?

That nobody was arrested? Don't you think its appropriate to assume that the vast majority of transactions made in the economic system were done legally?

crashfrog writes:

The outcome.

Explain why exactly the outcome is a bad thing.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 347 by crashfrog, posted 03-03-2011 10:25 PM crashfrog has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 349 by crashfrog, posted 03-03-2011 11:24 PM Phage0070 has not yet responded

crashfrog
Inactive Member


Message 349 of 350 (607476)
03-03-2011 11:24 PM
Reply to: Message 348 by Phage0070
03-03-2011 10:36 PM


Re: inequality widens, gets worse for the workers
That nobody was arrested?

How does that prove that even a single investment was made? Be specific, please.

Explain why exactly the outcome is a bad thing.

I have, as have others. People who earn money should be the people who have money.

You, on the other hand, believe in a kind of klepto-socialism where each gives as little as possible and takes according to his opportunity. Redistribution from the middle class to the wealthy isn't capitalism; it's just plain theft.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 348 by Phage0070, posted 03-03-2011 10:36 PM Phage0070 has not yet responded

Adminnemooseus
Director
Posts: 3879
Joined: 09-26-2002


Message 350 of 350 (607477)
03-03-2011 11:58 PM


Closing soon
The topic has long strayed from the intended military expenditures theme (which, dammit, wasn't in the topic title).

I suggest multiple new topics to focus on specific themes. Such can be started directly in the "Coffee House". Please strive to avoid redundant topics, and feel free to link back to appropriate place(s) in this topic.

Closing in ~15 minutes (unless my mind wanders too far).

Adminnemooseus

Edited by Adminnemooseus, : Add linky comment.


  
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