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Author Topic:   Did the Biblical Exodus ever happen?
ringo
Member (Idle past 430 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 278 of 657 (602729)
01-31-2011 12:02 PM
Reply to: Message 276 by Buzsaw
01-31-2011 11:17 AM


Re: Red/Reed Sea Etc
Buzsaw writes:
And then there's I Kings 9:26 which includes the Gulf of Aqaba as being the "sea of reeds"
"Sea of reeds" doesn't correspond to the sandbar that you claim was the crossing point.

"I'm Rory Bellows, I tell you! And I got a lot of corroborating evidence... over here... by the throttle!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 276 by Buzsaw, posted 01-31-2011 11:17 AM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 284 by Buzsaw, posted 01-31-2011 2:38 PM ringo has replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 430 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 287 of 657 (602765)
01-31-2011 3:08 PM
Reply to: Message 284 by Buzsaw
01-31-2011 2:38 PM


Re: Red/Reed Sea Etc
Buzsaw writes:
Why don't you guys stop these baseless time wasting blind assertions...?
You're ignoring the fact that your claims do not fit the Biblical account. Tying your claims about the Exodus story to the Exodus story is not a waste of time.
Once and for all, why don't you address the issues?
Nuweiba is much too far away from Egypt. It would have taken weeks to march the children of Israel that far, a time frame which is not reflected in the Bible. The story suggests that Pharaoh gave chase almost immediately and caught up almost immediately.
According to the story, the children of Israel were not trapped. God told them to fool Pharaoh into thinking they were lost so that He could show them that He was still in charge of the situation. That ruse didn't require them to go hundreds of miles in the wrong direction.
You have to expalin those discrepancies before anything you find at Nuweiba has any relevance.

"I'm Rory Bellows, I tell you! And I got a lot of corroborating evidence... over here... by the throttle!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 284 by Buzsaw, posted 01-31-2011 2:38 PM Buzsaw has seen this message but not replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 430 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 304 of 657 (602902)
02-01-2011 3:59 PM
Reply to: Message 289 by Buzsaw
01-31-2011 4:15 PM


Re: Arabia
Buzsaw writes:
The Biblical record of the Exodus links Moses's location after the crossing as Midian.
Remember that Moses made his first trip to Midian before the Exodus:
quote:
Exo 2:15 Now when Pharaoh heard this thing, he sought to slay Moses. But Moses fled from the face of Pharaoh, and dwelt in the land of Midian: and he sat down by a well.
You have the same problem there as with the Exodus: There was no reason to travel all the way to the Arabian Peninsula to escape Pharaoh's wrath. The Sinai Peninsula was remote enough.

"I'm Rory Bellows, I tell you! And I got a lot of corroborating evidence... over here... by the throttle!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 289 by Buzsaw, posted 01-31-2011 4:15 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 305 by Buzsaw, posted 02-01-2011 4:05 PM ringo has replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 430 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 306 of 657 (602908)
02-01-2011 4:20 PM
Reply to: Message 305 by Buzsaw
02-01-2011 4:05 PM


Re: Arabia
Buzsaw writes:
Ringo writes:
Remember that Moses made his first trip to Midian before the Exodus:
LOL. What army is going to go after or even care about one man?
Exactly. Moses didn't have to escape very far, just out of sight, out of mind. The Sinai Peninsula was plenty far enough. And your own argument is that the Israelites escaped to the same place.

"I'm Rory Bellows, I tell you! And I got a lot of corroborating evidence... over here... by the throttle!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 305 by Buzsaw, posted 02-01-2011 4:05 PM Buzsaw has seen this message but not replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 430 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 325 of 657 (603043)
02-02-2011 12:54 PM
Reply to: Message 323 by Buzsaw
02-02-2011 12:33 PM


Re: Mt Sinai and Evidence.
Buzsaw writes:
If an author would state where the Matterhorn was, the author would not say it was in Europe. One would say it is in Switzerland.
On the contrary, there's a whole range of ways to describe a location, some more specific than others. I tell people all the time that I'm in Canada. Sometimes, I tell them more precisely that I'm in the province of Saskatchewan (if I think they might have a clue where that is). I'm almost never more specific than that.
It's just silly to suggest that Paul "must" have meant the Arabian Peninsula just because he wasn't specific about which province. After all, he was writing to an audience that probably didn't know much about Arabia.

"I'm Rory Bellows, I tell you! And I got a lot of corroborating evidence... over here... by the throttle!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 323 by Buzsaw, posted 02-02-2011 12:33 PM Buzsaw has not replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 430 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 335 of 657 (603226)
02-03-2011 1:04 PM
Reply to: Message 332 by Buzsaw
02-03-2011 11:20 AM


Buzsaw writes:
Nobody can henceforth truthfully allege that Buzsaw has cited no supportive I say supportive evidence for the Biblical Exodus.
If you want to make that claim, you have to address the rebuttals. So far, all you've done is ignore the sound reasons for rejecting your claims.
Let's try again: Why would the children of Israel travel hundreds of miles out of their way to trap Pharaoh? Why would Moses travel to the far side of Aqaba to escape Egyptian justice? Geographically, Nuweiba makes no sense.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 332 by Buzsaw, posted 02-03-2011 11:20 AM Buzsaw has not replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 430 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 347 of 657 (603333)
02-03-2011 9:09 PM
Reply to: Message 344 by Buzsaw
02-03-2011 8:13 PM


Re: where's the wheel?
Buzsaw writes:
And if you need a good look at the debris, take five minutes or so and watch Lennart Mollart's claimed evidence.
That video is a waste of time. All it shows is a recreation of what Moller expected to find.

"I'm Rory Bellows, I tell you! And I got a lot of corroborating evidence... over here... by the throttle!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 344 by Buzsaw, posted 02-03-2011 8:13 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 348 by Buzsaw, posted 02-03-2011 9:19 PM ringo has replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 430 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 351 of 657 (603339)
02-03-2011 9:29 PM
Reply to: Message 348 by Buzsaw
02-03-2011 9:19 PM


Re: where's the wheel?
Buzsaw writes:
Did your eyes and mind hone in on that phenomenal, in tact, axle and wheel table like form in the video?
Did your eyes and mind fail to notice the label that said "Re-creation" at about 8:20?
Buzsaw writes:
If so, tell the folks why or why not it appeared to be in the shape of an axle and wheels.
Because it was drawn to look that way.

"I'm Rory Bellows, I tell you! And I got a lot of corroborating evidence... over here... by the throttle!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 348 by Buzsaw, posted 02-03-2011 9:19 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 354 by Buzsaw, posted 02-03-2011 11:48 PM ringo has replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 430 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 355 of 657 (603356)
02-04-2011 12:01 AM
Reply to: Message 354 by Buzsaw
02-03-2011 11:48 PM


Re: where's the wheel?
Buzsaw writes:
Anyone can see the recreated enhancement is deliberate so as to help visualize what formed the coral formations.
The point is that there is nothing but the enhancement. There is no indication that Moller actually found anything inside the coral formation. There is nothing in that video except a flight of fancy.

"I'm Rory Bellows, I tell you! And I got a lot of corroborating evidence... over here... by the throttle!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 354 by Buzsaw, posted 02-03-2011 11:48 PM Buzsaw has not replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 430 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 368 of 657 (603457)
02-04-2011 1:54 PM
Reply to: Message 362 by Buzsaw
02-04-2011 12:00 PM


Re: Buzsaw To All:
Buzsaw writes:
I understand that the secularists have a huge stake in this debate.
I have no stake in this debate. I would love to see evidence of the Exodus, the Flood, Bigfoot, alien abductions, etc. The world is full of weird and wonderful things and inquiring minds are eager to know them if they are supported by evidence.
But all your video shows is wishful thinking. "This is what a coral formation would look like if I drew chariot wheels on it."
If Moller was interested in serious research, he could/should/would have documented the (supposed) debris field photographically and mapped every (suspected) artifact for future reference. At the very, very least, he could/should/would have put something in the picture to show the scale. How do we know that those coral formations are the right size to be chariot wheels? How do we know they aren't one foot in diameter or twelve feet in diameter?
It isn't a matter of skeptics being too skeptical. It's a matter of you being far too credulous. By all means, lets find evidence to support Bible history but not by jumping on the bandwagon of every charlatan who's out to sell a video.

"I'm Rory Bellows, I tell you! And I got a lot of corroborating evidence... over here... by the throttle!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 362 by Buzsaw, posted 02-04-2011 12:00 PM Buzsaw has not replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 430 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 375 of 657 (603570)
02-05-2011 11:56 AM
Reply to: Message 364 by Buzsaw
02-04-2011 12:20 PM


Re: Buzsaw To All:
Buzsaw writes:
Btw, the clip which I provided shows Mollar's scientific method of falsification. He researched the Red Sea topography in the region of the long acclaimed traditional Mt Sinai, finding it much deeper and more rugged, lacking any corroborative evidence.
Even if that was true, it isn't a falsification. There's nothing in the Biblical account that suggests a "land bridge". There's nothing about the depth of the water at all.
Making up a fictional shallow spot does nothing but diminish the extent of the miracle. God could have given the Israelites a dry path through the Mariana Trench if He wanted to.

"I'm Rory Bellows, I tell you! And I got a lot of corroborating evidence... over here... by the throttle!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 364 by Buzsaw, posted 02-04-2011 12:20 PM Buzsaw has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 376 by jar, posted 02-05-2011 12:08 PM ringo has not replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 430 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 385 of 657 (603926)
02-09-2011 1:07 AM
Reply to: Message 383 by Buzsaw
02-08-2011 11:52 PM


Re: Taking Chariots down the wall of the Grand Canyon
Buzsaw writes:
You're assuming that the mighty rush of water would have caused no erosion of a larger delta from the wadi canyon and that nothing changed during the event and over the millennia since the event from shipping and currents, earth quakes etc.
If a "mighty rush of water" significantly altered the topography, then it would have done the same thing anywhere else and your whole "land bridge" argument becomes irrelevant.

"I'm Rory Bellows, I tell you! And I got a lot of corroborating evidence... over here... by the throttle!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 383 by Buzsaw, posted 02-08-2011 11:52 PM Buzsaw has not replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 430 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 409 of 657 (604104)
02-10-2011 1:35 AM
Reply to: Message 406 by Buzsaw
02-10-2011 12:43 AM


Re: Setting The Record Straight
Buzsaw writes:
The fact that there is even a black topped mountain in the right succession to my row of ducks lends some (I say some) credence to it's significance.
What does a black topped mountain have to do with anything? Where does the Biblical account say anything about a black topped mountain? Even the bush that God spoke through wasn't burnt.

"I'm Rory Bellows, I tell you! And I got a lot of corroborating evidence... over here... by the throttle!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 406 by Buzsaw, posted 02-10-2011 12:43 AM Buzsaw has not replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 430 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 432 of 657 (604328)
02-11-2011 11:05 AM
Reply to: Message 430 by Buzsaw
02-11-2011 10:51 AM


Re: Evidence Or Not?
Buzsaw writes:
... neglecting the big conglomerate picture.
You remind me of the old children's joke:
"This is a picture of a cow eating grass."
"Where's the grass?"
"The cow ate it all."
"Where's the cow?"
"Why would he stick around when all the grass is gone?"
The grass can't corroborate the cow because the grass isn't there. The cow can't corroborate the grass because the cow isn't there. Two things that don't exist can't corroborate each other.
There is no picture.

"I'm Rory Bellows, I tell you! And I got a lot of corroborating evidence... over here... by the throttle!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 430 by Buzsaw, posted 02-11-2011 10:51 AM Buzsaw has seen this message but not replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 430 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 456 of 657 (607751)
03-06-2011 4:03 PM
Reply to: Message 452 by Buzsaw
03-06-2011 1:41 PM


Re: Summarizing The Evidence
Buzsaw writes:
I expect that when my stuff effectively challenges the positions of the majority counterparts.
You haven't challenged anybody. If the children of Israel did cross the Gulf of Aqaba at Nuweiba, that wouldn't present the slightest problem to anything I believe. I'd be more than happy to accept it, so you can stop lying about that.
The issue is that you've presented no evidence that hasn't been soundly refuted. You don't even seem to have any understanding of what evidence is. You can't just keep claiming that it supports your position when you've been shown that it doesn't.
On top of that, most of your claims flat-out contradict what the Bible says.

You can have brevity and clarify, or you can have accuracy and detail, but you can't easily have both. --Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 452 by Buzsaw, posted 03-06-2011 1:41 PM Buzsaw has seen this message but not replied

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