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Author Topic:   What IS evidence of design? (CLOSING STATEMENTS ONLY)
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 121 of 377 (608089)
03-08-2011 4:47 PM
Reply to: Message 119 by slevesque
03-08-2011 4:19 PM


off topic aside
Hi slevesque,
I don't know if you saw, and assume you've missed any edits to, Message 174 so I just wanted to bring it to your attention.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 119 by slevesque, posted 03-08-2011 4:19 PM slevesque has not replied

NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 122 of 377 (608090)
03-08-2011 4:51 PM
Reply to: Message 119 by slevesque
03-08-2011 4:19 PM


slevesque writes:
Still, I guess you could tell me the problem you see with irreducible complexity, since I do think that claims that it has been ''completely and utterly demolished'' are far from the actual reality of it.
I've never seen a convincing argument that the presence of IC or specified complexity indicate design. I'm curious as to why you think that they do. In particular I find it interesting that anyone who could not check Behe's work for themselves would believe anything he had to say.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 119 by slevesque, posted 03-08-2011 4:19 PM slevesque has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 124 by slevesque, posted 03-08-2011 5:14 PM NoNukes has replied

slevesque
Member (Idle past 4640 days)
Posts: 1456
Joined: 05-14-2009


Message 123 of 377 (608094)
03-08-2011 5:07 PM
Reply to: Message 120 by Taq
03-08-2011 4:35 PM


In case you are, why do you think that IC is evidence of design? (a short answer is all that is necessary)
I guess you could say that it is an inductively proven premise, since every IC system of which we know the origin was designed.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 120 by Taq, posted 03-08-2011 4:35 PM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 126 by Taq, posted 03-08-2011 5:22 PM slevesque has replied

slevesque
Member (Idle past 4640 days)
Posts: 1456
Joined: 05-14-2009


Message 124 of 377 (608095)
03-08-2011 5:14 PM
Reply to: Message 122 by NoNukes
03-08-2011 4:51 PM


I've never seen a convincing argument that the presence of IC or specified complexity indicate design. I'm curious as to why you think that they do. In particular I find it interesting that anyone who could not check Behe's work for themselves would believe anything he had to say.
All I said was that any claim that it had been ''completely and utterly demolished'' seem pretty senseless to me, partly because I doubt a whole lot of people here have read Behe's original book, let alone all the updates and ''answers to the critics'' he has done through his blog and other books. there is more to the idea of IC then what you read on talkorigins.com ...

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 Message 122 by NoNukes, posted 03-08-2011 4:51 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 127 by frako, posted 03-08-2011 5:32 PM slevesque has replied
 Message 128 by NoNukes, posted 03-08-2011 5:56 PM slevesque has not replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 125 of 377 (608097)
03-08-2011 5:17 PM
Reply to: Message 117 by slevesque
03-08-2011 4:04 PM


slevesque writes:
I Think you are going in the wrong direction in this discussion. The issue is not if there are designed things that can look just like undesigned things, but if there are specific attributes that you will only ever observe when looking at something that was designed. This is not saying, of course, that all designed things have these attributes, but rather that if you do observe one, then it was designed.
One such criteria that was proposed by the ID movement was irreducible complexity, another was specified complexity.
I have seen other criteria proposed such as emergent properties but it was a bit ill-defined. The basic idea was that if a certain numbers of pieces were arranged in a specific way in order to have a new property emerge (such as the arrangement of metal that makes a plane fly), then it was designed.
So it not really what characteristic do all designed thing have in common, but rather what characteristic can identify something as designed if it is present.
So give us the way that you can identify Specified Complexity or why Irreducible Complexity would indicate design.
I can assure you that so far no one in the ID cult has done so.
Edited by jar, : appalin spallin

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

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 Message 117 by slevesque, posted 03-08-2011 4:04 PM slevesque has not replied

Taq
Member
Posts: 9972
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.5


Message 126 of 377 (608099)
03-08-2011 5:22 PM
Reply to: Message 123 by slevesque
03-08-2011 5:07 PM


I guess you could say that it is an inductively proven premise, since every IC system of which we know the origin was designed.
What about the IC systems that we do not know the origin of? How does IC evidence design in these instances?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 123 by slevesque, posted 03-08-2011 5:07 PM slevesque has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 129 by slevesque, posted 03-08-2011 6:02 PM Taq has replied

frako
Member (Idle past 305 days)
Posts: 2932
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010


Message 127 of 377 (608101)
03-08-2011 5:32 PM
Reply to: Message 124 by slevesque
03-08-2011 5:14 PM


irreducibly complex system as one composed of several well-matched, interacting parts that contribute to the basic function, wherein the removal of any one of the parts causes the system to effectively cease functioning.
Is IC real'y evidence of design
If i remove the glass from my window it isno longer functioning as a barrier, tough it still functions as a look trough hole. So my window is not designed?
Edited by frako, : No reason given.

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 Message 124 by slevesque, posted 03-08-2011 5:14 PM slevesque has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 130 by slevesque, posted 03-08-2011 6:05 PM frako has replied

NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 128 of 377 (608104)
03-08-2011 5:56 PM
Reply to: Message 124 by slevesque
03-08-2011 5:14 PM


Removed by author
Edited by NoNukes, : Going into lurk mode for this thread. Don't want to dogpile

This message is a reply to:
 Message 124 by slevesque, posted 03-08-2011 5:14 PM slevesque has not replied

slevesque
Member (Idle past 4640 days)
Posts: 1456
Joined: 05-14-2009


Message 129 of 377 (608109)
03-08-2011 6:02 PM
Reply to: Message 126 by Taq
03-08-2011 5:22 PM


What about the IC systems that we do not know the origin of? How does IC evidence design in these instances?
You can inductively conclude design in those instances.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 126 by Taq, posted 03-08-2011 5:22 PM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 131 by Taq, posted 03-08-2011 6:10 PM slevesque has replied
 Message 147 by jar, posted 03-08-2011 7:24 PM slevesque has not replied

slevesque
Member (Idle past 4640 days)
Posts: 1456
Joined: 05-14-2009


Message 130 of 377 (608111)
03-08-2011 6:05 PM
Reply to: Message 127 by frako
03-08-2011 5:32 PM


If i remove the glass from my window it isno longer functioning as a barrier, tough it still functions as a look trough hole. So my window is not designed?
IC systems are designed
System A is not an IC system
Therefore system A was not designed
Classic example of denying the antecedent.

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 Message 127 by frako, posted 03-08-2011 5:32 PM frako has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 134 by frako, posted 03-08-2011 6:27 PM slevesque has replied

Taq
Member
Posts: 9972
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.5


Message 131 of 377 (608112)
03-08-2011 6:10 PM
Reply to: Message 129 by slevesque
03-08-2011 6:02 PM


You can inductively conclude design in those instances.
How?
Edited to add: Consider the following argument.
All known planets orbit the Sun.
Therefore, any new planets we discover must also orbit the Sun.
I would think that inductive reasoning is a very poor way of finding the truth, wouldn't you?
Edited by Taq, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 129 by slevesque, posted 03-08-2011 6:02 PM slevesque has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 132 by slevesque, posted 03-08-2011 6:13 PM Taq has replied

slevesque
Member (Idle past 4640 days)
Posts: 1456
Joined: 05-14-2009


Message 132 of 377 (608114)
03-08-2011 6:13 PM
Reply to: Message 131 by Taq
03-08-2011 6:10 PM


All IC systems are designed
System A is IC
Therefore system A was designed
The first premise comes from the induction:
all IC systems of which we know the origin were designed,
therefore, all IC systems are designed.
To negate this you would need to find a counter-example.
The second premise is an observation.
The conclusion follows.
AbE:
Edited to add: Consider the following argument.
All known planets orbit the Sun.
Therefore, any new planets we discover must also orbit the Sun.
This would be inductively true up to the point where we find a counter-example, which we have.
I would think that inductive reasoning is a very poor way of finding the truth, wouldn't you?
Inductive reasoning is central to the scientific process. Theories are proven until counter-examples are found.
Edited by slevesque, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 131 by Taq, posted 03-08-2011 6:10 PM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 133 by Taq, posted 03-08-2011 6:18 PM slevesque has replied
 Message 136 by ringo, posted 03-08-2011 6:36 PM slevesque has replied

Taq
Member
Posts: 9972
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.5


Message 133 of 377 (608115)
03-08-2011 6:18 PM
Reply to: Message 132 by slevesque
03-08-2011 6:13 PM


All IC systems are designed
System A is IC
Therefore system A was designed
How did you determine that all IC systems are designed? You seem to be inserting the conclusion in the premise.
all IC systems of which we know the origin were designed
We don't know the origin of the flagellum, therefore this does not apply nor does the rest of the argument.
Adding the ABE part:
Inductive reasoning is central to the scientific process. Theories are proven until counter-examples are found.
That is easy. Each and every molecule is irreducibly complex. If you remove one atom you lose the function of that molecule. Take a nitrogen out of an amino acid and you no longer have that amino acid. It no longer functions in the same way. We also observe that amino acids can and do come about through natural processes.
Edited by Taq, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 132 by slevesque, posted 03-08-2011 6:13 PM slevesque has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 135 by slevesque, posted 03-08-2011 6:32 PM Taq has replied

frako
Member (Idle past 305 days)
Posts: 2932
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010


Message 134 of 377 (608117)
03-08-2011 6:27 PM
Reply to: Message 130 by slevesque
03-08-2011 6:05 PM


IC systems are designed
System A is not an IC system
Therefore system A was not designed
Classic example of denying the antecedent.
Ok then name and IC designed system and il show you how removing a part never removes the functionality at best it changes its functionality ergo there are no ireducibly complex systems

This message is a reply to:
 Message 130 by slevesque, posted 03-08-2011 6:05 PM slevesque has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 140 by slevesque, posted 03-08-2011 6:51 PM frako has replied

slevesque
Member (Idle past 4640 days)
Posts: 1456
Joined: 05-14-2009


Message 135 of 377 (608118)
03-08-2011 6:32 PM
Reply to: Message 133 by Taq
03-08-2011 6:18 PM


How did you determine that all IC systems are designed? You seem to be inserting the conclusion in the premise.
quote:
all IC systems of which we know the origin were designed,
therefore, all IC systems are designed.
  —slevesque
We don't know the origin of the flagellum, therefore this does not apply nor does the rest of the argument.
You seem to be struggling to understand how induction works, that much I can tell.
Let's take a less contentious example:
1. All swans are white
2. This is a swan
3. Therefore it is white
Now this first premise is proven inductively by the following:
All the swans I have seen are white
therefore, all swans are white
Now suppose I hid a swan in a box, and asked you what color it was. Wouldn't you be justified to inductively conclude that it was white ?
Would you be justified to say ''I have not seen this swan, so it does not apply nor does the rest of the reasoning'' ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 133 by Taq, posted 03-08-2011 6:18 PM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 137 by Taq, posted 03-08-2011 6:37 PM slevesque has replied

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