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Author Topic:   What IS evidence of design? (CLOSING STATEMENTS ONLY)
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 311 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 253 of 377 (608373)
03-10-2011 2:11 AM
Reply to: Message 251 by slevesque
03-10-2011 1:56 AM


All I am saying is that, if anything, observed lack of extraterrestial life ...
But this isn't an "observed lack" --- rather, it's a lack of observation. Which is different.
But of course, and I'll repeat myself, I totally agree we haven't searched enough for this to hold any weight
Agreed. In fact, it's not just that we "haven't searched enough" --- we haven't even searched in the right way. So far, the only tests we have made are for life which lives in our near vicinity, which is smart enough to build radios and suchlike gadgets, which is dumb enough not to have built anything better, and which is incautious enough to want to broadcast this fact to the galaxy. That's a much narrower field.

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 Message 251 by slevesque, posted 03-10-2011 1:56 AM slevesque has not replied

Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 311 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 254 of 377 (608375)
03-10-2011 2:20 AM
Reply to: Message 252 by slevesque
03-10-2011 2:06 AM


Think about it, suppose I turned lead into gold and you told me I did so via a natural mean. But when I asked why you think this is so, you answered ''because I have observed natural processes''. This would clearly be illogical, just because you saw an appl fall to the ground, or an electric current create a magnetic field, or any other natural process it does not mean anything concerning turning lead into gold. You actually need to have at least a plausible naturalistic mechanism, and/or observed revelant natural processes.
Well, no.
Suppose you actually (apparently) saw me take an ingot of lead and turn it into an ingot of gold.
Now, you admittedly believe in supernatural forces. Nonetheless, wouldn't your first hypothesis be that I had used natural means to bring about this effect --- possibly some sort of conjuring trick? Would that not be more "logical" than the conclusion that I actually have supernatural powers?
Heck, what do you think when you actually see a conjuring trick? Has it ever even crossed your mind that (for example) Penn & Teller have supernatural powers from Satan, or have you always assumed that they are using purely natural means to produce their effects?
Whether or not miracles happen, we must admit that they are rare. Therefore, in the absence of any explanation of a given effect, we are compelled to believe as a default position that the cause was natural. This is not certain, but it is certainly the way to bet.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 252 by slevesque, posted 03-10-2011 2:06 AM slevesque has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 266 by slevesque, posted 03-10-2011 2:37 PM Dr Adequate has replied

Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 311 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 286 of 377 (608512)
03-10-2011 7:43 PM
Reply to: Message 266 by slevesque
03-10-2011 2:37 PM


There are a couple of crucial points that you are omitting:
First, my example wasn't about an illusion trick. It was about a real observed phenomenon, lead really turning into gold.
Yes, but you wouldn't know that --- what you'd know is that you'd seen something which looked like I'd turned lead into gold. And I think that you would be skeptical that I had done so --- even if I actually had.
Second, even within your trick illusion example, you are forgetting that to support the claim 'it was done by a natural process' I have relevant observation of natural processes, ie experience of previous illusion tricks. (This is why I had bolded 'relevant', apparently you missed it)
But now imagine someone with no previous relevant observations, like a little kid who sees his first magic trick. From his point of view, the fact that he has seen 'natural processes' before is irrelevant, none of them correlate ot this.
I'm not quite following you.
This is why I'm saying claiming a naturalistic origin of any phenomenon cannot simply be supported by the fact you know natural processes exist in general. As I said, you have to have relevant obeservations and/or a possible natural mechanism.
Well, no. When I see, for example, Penn & Teller's bullet catch trick I don't have the ghost of a hypothesis as to how it was done, nor will I if I live to be a hundred. But I know that the universe tends to work in a regular and law-like way and that it is at least very unusual for someone to be able to suspend these laws at will. So my default position is that this is not what Penn & Teller are doing.
That is, my conviction that the explanation is naturalistic is indeed merely supported by the observation that most explanations for things are.

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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 311 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 320 of 377 (608636)
03-12-2011 12:25 AM
Reply to: Message 303 by slevesque
03-11-2011 4:35 PM


Re: Many ways to create an IC system.
In biological systems, 'steps' are simply mutations. To evolve IC systems, you need to have multiple simultaneous mutations. If you doubt this, consider that all researches that try to find a mechanism to evolve such systems approach it by trying to find a mechanism in which multiple simultaneous mutations will become visible to selection.
That would be worthier of consideration if it was remotely true.

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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 311 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 321 of 377 (608637)
03-12-2011 12:44 AM
Reply to: Message 307 by slevesque
03-11-2011 5:00 PM


Re: Many ways to create an IC system.
Does the arch have a function while it is being built in your analogy ? Or does it only acquire a function when it is finished ? If so, then it still requires the foresight of intelligence to aim towards that final functioning state even though in the meantime it serves no purpose.
Behe certainly thinks the idea of multiple simulteneous mutations creating IC systems to be the biggest argument against his, since it is the main point of his last book to investigate this possibility.
Has it not occurred to you that perhaps he is fighting a strawman, and is "investigating" this possibility not because it's the biggest argument against him, but the weakest?
The obvious answer to Behe, which he has not to my knowledge tackled, is to point out that to show that something is irreducibly complex is to show that it couldn't have been produced by the last part of it popping into existence out of nothing.
But this is not what evolutionists claim to have happened in the first place. As Behe admitted: "There is an asymmetry between my current definition of irreducible complexity and the task facing natural selection".
Now we can see in the fossil record the evolution of something that is indubitably irreducibly complex --- the bones of the mammalian middle ear. This process did not involve the malleus, incus, or stapes poofing into existence, but a gradual modification of their forms and their relationships to each other and to other bones.
Now gradual modification is, you must admit, more evolutionary than poofing, or indeed the occurrence of simultaneous well-coordinated mutations, so maybe Behe could discuss that instead.
essentially, they propose a mechanism where mutations can neutraly accumulate in a gene, and then be 'revealed' all at once for selection, hopefully giving a worthwhile result that will be selected for.
Where do they say that this has anything to do with simultaneous mutations independently conspiring to form a biological system; or that it has anything to do with irreducible complexity; or that they've even heard of Behe's ideas?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 307 by slevesque, posted 03-11-2011 5:00 PM slevesque has not replied

Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 311 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 347 of 377 (608676)
03-12-2011 1:27 PM
Reply to: Message 334 by havoc
03-12-2011 11:33 AM


Are you aware that many (most) secular scientists think that genetics is best understood in the terms of information?
No.
Are you aware that many (all) information theorists do not think that "information" means "something that was magicked into existence by God"?

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 Message 334 by havoc, posted 03-12-2011 11:33 AM havoc has not replied

Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 311 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 350 of 377 (608679)
03-12-2011 1:34 PM
Reply to: Message 335 by havoc
03-12-2011 11:43 AM


Christianity For Beginners
So why do these scientists claim to be Christian?
Because they believe in Jesus; but not in your interpretation of Genesis. You will find that in almost every Christian confession you are much, much less important than Jesus.
Look, here's the "Apostle's Creed" ---
I believe in God, the Father Almighty,
the Maker of heaven and earth,
and in Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord:
Who was conceived by the Holy Ghost,
born of the virgin Mary,
suffered under Pontius Pilate,
was crucified, dead, and buried;
He descended into hell.
The third day He arose again from the dead;
He ascended into heaven,
and sitteth on the right hand of God the Father Almighty;
from thence he shall come to judge the quick and the dead.
I believe in the Holy Ghost;
the holy catholic church;
the communion of saints;
the forgiveness of sins;
the resurrection of the body;
and the life everlasting.
Amen.
Note that there's not a word in there about you nor about any daft mistakes you may choose to make about biology.
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
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