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Author | Topic: What IS evidence of design? (CLOSING STATEMENTS ONLY) | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
havoc Member (Idle past 4780 days) Posts: 89 Joined: |
So if life does not appear in a bottle of milk in the matter of weeks this means that life can not appear in volumes the size of the oceans over millions of years across billions of planets? I think you are a bit off on this one. Pasteurization is experimental, operational science. It is easily falsifiable, pasteurize something then ensuring a sterile environment make it come to life. We might be a bit off topic here though.
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havoc Member (Idle past 4780 days) Posts: 89 Joined: |
Learn to read. Learn to be civil.
At times we can determine if a non biological artifact is the result of outside interference and influence. Read the OP. In it I post examples. When someone can present the same level of evidence regarding biological things then we can consider that they might be a product of outside interference and influence. So far NO Creationist or Intelligent (talk about and oxymoron) Design marketeer has produced comparable evidence. Ok so your examples are a computer with HP stamped on it and a car with Dodge on it. So if you know the maker you know it was made? surely there can be design when the designer in unknown. Here is an example of biological design. Color vision. I will now quote directly from a Jonathan Sarfati book.
Our eyes have two types of light detectors, rods and cones. The cones are mainly in the central part of our retina and need bright lightthey detect colour. The rods are in the peripheral part and are good in dim light but can’t distinguish colours. There are three types of cone. One is sensitive mainly to red, a second to green and a third blue. Each of them sends a signal to the brain if it detects light. But the signal by itself says nothing about colour, only about the brightness of the light it can detect. Yet from the simple system, we can distinguish millions of different colours. Here’s how. If a small beam of red light hits three adjoining cones, only the red one will fire, sending a signal to the brain. But this signal by its self doesn’t say ‘red’it is only the lack of signal from the adjoining blue and green cones that makes the brain see ‘red’. But what about yellow? Here, a beam of yellow light, wavelength about 580 nm, will still land on three cones. But as they have a range of detectable wavelengths, both the red and green cones will detect the light. When the brain receives signals from adjoining red and green cones, it sees ‘yellow’. If the light is somewhat greenish yellow, the green cone will send a slightly stronger signal, so the brain sees a greener shade of yellow. The brain can distinguish between many different wavelengths of light by how they affect the three types of cone. And if all three are fired equally strongly, the brain sees white. Explain color vision in the terms of slight changes required by Darwin. I know its not a compeling as your Dodge sticker example but seems to make sence to me.
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havoc Member (Idle past 4780 days) Posts: 89 Joined: |
It is also irrelevant. If color vision provides an advantage it will be selected. There is no mystery there. There is NO evidence of any outside interference or influencing entity. I dont think evolution could ever lead to this level of design. So I find these fine tuned features as evidence of design.
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havoc Member (Idle past 4780 days) Posts: 89 Joined: |
So where in this experiment does it demonstrate that life can not come from non-life? from wikipedia:
Pasteur demonstrated that fermentation is caused by the growth of micro-organisms, and that the emergent growth of bacteria in nutrient broths is not due to spontaneous generation[2] but rather to biogenesis (Omne vivum ex ovo). Bottle en col de cygne (Swan neck duct) used by PasteurInstitut Pasteur de LilleHe exposed boiled broths to air in vessels that contained a filter to prevent all particles from passing through to the growth medium, and even in vessels with no filter at all, with air being admitted via a long tortuous tube that would not allow dust particles to pass. Nothing grew in the broths unless the flasks were broken open; therefore, the living organisms that grew in such broths came from outside, as spores on dust, rather than spontaneously generated within the broth. This was one of the last and most important experiments disproving the theory of spontaneous generation. The experiment also supported germ theory. I guess I should have said sterilization instead of pasturisation. In eithre event Spontaneous generation has been disproven for a long long time.
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havoc Member (Idle past 4780 days) Posts: 89 Joined: |
or should I provide some reason for my assertion before we even begin to debate it? So there is no reason to believe that non living can not become living? How about the fact that it has never been observed.
In his triumphal lecture at the Sorbonne in 1864, Pasteur said "Never will the doctrine of spontaneous generation recover from the mortal blow struck by this simple experiment" (referring to his swan-neck flask experiment wherein he proved that fermenting micro-organisms would not form in a flask containing fermentable juice until an entry path was created for them Edited by havoc, : No reason given.
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havoc Member (Idle past 4780 days) Posts: 89 Joined: |
Similar to the question I asked slevesque, when scientists show that life can arise from non-life, will you admit that an intelligent designer is not needed for life to be here? If scientists show that non life can become life without the help of the scientists then that would be evidence consistant with abiogenesis. If it takes a team of Intelligent scientists to cause non life to become life. This in no way would be evidence of abiogenesis.
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havoc Member (Idle past 4780 days) Posts: 89 Joined: |
You DO realize that Pasteur's work wasn't a universal truth Sure it is. His experiment proved Non life can not become life spontaniously did it not?
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havoc Member (Idle past 4780 days) Posts: 89 Joined: |
That's what I thought. You're going to hide behind the fallacy that the scientists did it, thereby showing only that intelligence can create life. The scientists would be taking components that exist naturally, adding things like electricity, which exists naturally, and trying to get life. Would you consider that showing that it could have happened naturally, or would you say that the scientists were a necessary part of that process? If the experiment was consistant with the enviroment on your proto earth then I would have no problem with it.
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havoc Member (Idle past 4780 days) Posts: 89 Joined: |
Ok. Then I expect to see you back here in probably 5 to 10 years, when we do exactly that. Its a date...unless the rapture comes first.
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havoc Member (Idle past 4780 days) Posts: 89 Joined: |
Is ice freezing in a refrigerator evidence that water does not freeze naturally? Not what I said, but you allready know that. Is water freezing below 32 degrees proof that it can freeze at 50 degrees? What is up with the insults? I’m sure you are an intelligent person who happens to be wrong.
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havoc Member (Idle past 4780 days) Posts: 89 Joined: |
I'll make a deal with you. If the rapture comes, I'll convert to Christianity, if scientists show that life can occur naturally, you accept science over dogma. How about it? Point 1: you might want to move your time table up you dont want to miss the flight. Point 2: already have.
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havoc Member (Idle past 4780 days) Posts: 89 Joined: |
How hard can this be to understand? The distinction between spontaneous generation and abiogenesis is explained in the high school biology texts used in essentially every US public high school. Well, at least the texts that creationists haven't gotten to. Please explain how abiogenesis and spontaneous generation differ?
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havoc Member (Idle past 4780 days) Posts: 89 Joined:
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No, it's not different. The DNA interacts with other molecules. That interaction produces changes in the surrounding environment. It's physical all the way down. The encoding in DNA is semantically flexible, as we analyse it, but in the cell the exact same chemical processes that drive protein-protein, protein-lipid or protein-ion interactions are involved in protein-DNA interactions. No special explanation is required for DNA interactions that is not required for protein-protein interactions. So are you saying that the nucleotides have an affinity to each other or Condons to each other or the amino acids to each other. How do you explain that different condons code for the same amino acid? Seems as though it is like different words with the same meaning. They have no meaning outside of the code. At the point of translation the processes is informational. Or in other words it is the code that gives them meaning not chemical properties of the DNA. Edited by havoc, : No reason given.
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havoc Member (Idle past 4780 days) Posts: 89 Joined: |
It's physical all the way down well everything has a physical aspect but is that enough to explain genetics?
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havoc Member (Idle past 4780 days) Posts: 89 Joined: |
You knew that there was overwhelming evidence for macroevolution Because you say it does not make it so.
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